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Greg Siskind on Immigration Law and Policy

UK AIMS TO ATTRACT INDIAN STUDENTS

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While the US continues policies that punish Indians for being TOO successful in producing talented individuals seeking to work abroad, the UK is issuing new rules designed to attract those same individuals. We're being left in the dust, folks.



Thanks to Dan Kowalski for the tip.

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  1. George Chell back in the US's Avatar
    I do not know whether these rules will hold up if the conservatives come to power. While in Singapore, I found out that a lot of folks engaged to be married to British citizens have brought their marriage dates forward for the fear that they may be denied entry and Permanent Residence after next year if the conservatives got in. This is particularly true for Asians marrying British Caucasians. I at least know of five such cases.
  2. Hmm's Avatar
    To George Chell,

    What about Asians marrying British non-Caucasians.

    Is Britain as apartheid as South Africa...oh wait..South Africa is apartheid no more...oh....say what..
  3. USC's Avatar
    As regards, the USA, what it should do is to count 5 years of successful study by a F-1 student at a US educational institutional as meeting the 5 year residency requirement to apply for Naturalization.

    As regards, the UK they have a distinguished history of liberal immigration laws (as compared to most other countries) and a history of promoting good race relations. It is noteworthy that Benjamin Disraeli became PM in 1868 and Maggie Thatcher (of milk snatcher fame) in 1979. The US has yet to elect a President who is Jewish American, a woman or in fact anyone whose name ends in a vowel. Perhaps, Obam"a" will achieve two firsts!!
  4. Sid's Avatar
    I don't know about the history of race relations in the UK but I do have family there. UK is an incredibly racist country. Their public education system is completely out of whack.
  5. USC's Avatar
    "but I do have family there. UK is an incredibly racist country."

    Since, this is not a blog about racism I won't go into details as to why I disagree with this statement. However, as someone who went to elementary school in England for two years, spent a year at Cambridge, whose wife is English and who has many friends and business associates in the UK my personal experience is different from your family's.

    Are there racist people in the UK? Sure there are but they are in a minority. Furthermore, in the UK, people have more of a hang-up on class rather than race itself.

    "Their public education system is completely out of whack."

    I think you are using this in the wrong context. In the UK "Public School" refers to a Private School. I am unable to agree or disagree with your statement as I am not in touch with present day realities.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_school

  6. George Chell's Avatar
    "What about Asians marrying British non-Caucasians"

    Migration Watch an anti-immigration Think Tank in the UK is opposed to what they call "arranged marriages." For a long time the Thatcher government said that if a British woman of whatever race marries an Indian (whatever nationality), she must move to his country, based on Indian tradition.

    In Singapore, the sudden increase in white British women dating or engaged to local Asian men was partly the doing of the expat English woman Lynn Hesketh who runs a firm for expats called Anglo-Info. In a June 11, 2007 interview in the Straits Times she encouraged white English women to date local men, and there has been increase in such couples during the past year. Now suddenly they are facing the real possibility of a conservative government trying to split those couples by denying the foreign spouse the visa, not very different from what the Danes have been doing during the past six years. Hence, there is a sudden surge in marriages.

    There is no apartheid in the UK but there is racism..in England you will find some prejudice against other whites especially the Irish, Scots and Welsh, and yes there are many who dont like the idea of the UK being in the EU. The magazine, "This England" opposes UK's membership in the EU.
  7. George Chell's Avatar
    "However, as someone who went to elementary school in England for two years, spent a year at Cambridge, whose wife is English and who has many friends and business associates in the UK my personal experience is different from your family's."

    Are you white? He may be non-white and hence the experiences may be different.

    "Are there racist people in the UK? Sure there are but they are in a minority. Furthermore, in the UK, people have more of a hang-up on class rather than race itself."

    Lot less racism in the UK than in the southern US or for that matter Idaho or the province of Alberta in Canada. However, immigration is a hot button topic in every election in the UK unlike the United States due to a far smaller number of non-whites in the UK population with little or no power. Here in the US, high anti-immigrant feelings exists when there is a high racist feeling. Thus the rise of the KKK in the 1920s coincided with the xenophobic National Origins Act of 1924. As racism declines anti-immigration feelings decline. The heavy defeat of anti-immigrant Presidential and congressional candidates recently in the US could be attributed to the power of new citizens as well as the decline in racial feelings among the Americans, white or otherwise. The critical issue is how many immigrants become citizens. Higher number of new citizens will neutralize the racist and anti-immigrant groups.


  8. BeeDee's Avatar
    Racism has little to do with influencing how many students from India go to the UK.

    The UK universities are infamous in India for their role in influencing the country's experiment with state socialism. As they say, old habits die hard and these universities keep trying to get students for their humanities and social sciences courses even today.

    IMO, a favorable visa policy will do little to attract Indian students as long as degrees from the UK are seen as a liability in India. Instead of a visa policy UK universities need an image makeover and a focus on business and technology degrees to increase the flow of students from India.


    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indians_among_worlds_best_students_says_Oxford_boss/articleshow/3154646.cms

    "About a quarter of the students are doing MBAs...but I would like to see more in social sciences and humanities, doing both under-graduate and post-graduate work"
  9. b's Avatar
    "Racism has little to do with influencing how many students from India go to the UK."

    I agree. Times must have changed since my student days. Among peers, US was more well known than UK, Australia. Senior students from school chose US over others. Met only one who went to Australia. This might have to do with most people not just students in 90's preferring US over others as a place to advance in career, material wealth...
  10. USC's Avatar
    "Racism has little to do with influencing how many students from India go to the UK."

    I think we all agree on that. As regards, your other comments, British universities attract a different type of student. Think the likes of Karan Thapar, or those that want to pursue a career as a CA etc etc.

    Also, since British universities are not as liberal with financial aid they also tend to attract students fom higher income families.

    Just to give you an example, British universities tend to like Doon school graduates, OTH, US universities look at Doon School as a rich man's club!

    My experience is that the US is the favored destination for Indian middle income families and the UK is prefered by Indian higher income families.
  11. BeeDee's Avatar
    "British universities attract a different type of student."

    They have educated the leftists. I haven't reached a conclusion yet on whether the students become communists / leftists after being educated by the universities, but it seems a reasonable supposition after looking at the educational background of the personalities inhabiting the center-left political spectrum in India.

    "Also, since British universities are not as liberal with financial aid they also tend to attract students fom higher income families.

    Just to give you an example, British universities tend to like Doon school graduates, OTH, US universities look at Doon School as a rich man's club!"

    The less charitable view - which I subscribe to - about this phenomenon is that British universities have long targetted the Indian elite to peddle their left wing ideas. By now this has been going on long enough (over a century) that it is a inbred loop where there is a tradition among left wing parents send their children to the UK.
  12. USC's Avatar
    "personalities inhabiting the center-left political spectrum in India."

    Or more likely, the politicians are center-left because they are pandering to the poor rather than it being a result of their education (British or otherwise).

    "Indian elite to peddle their left wing ideas."

    ROFL!! The Indian wealthy are left wing? Let's see they have been victimized by the Indian government first by compulsory non-compensated acquistion of their agicultural holdings, then by acts such as the UCLA (Urban Land Ceiling Act, to the uninformed). I can go on and on.

    "left wing parents send their children to the UK."

    Sure. Some examples that come to mind would be the well known Indian cricketer aka the Nawab of Pataudi, other members of Indian Royalty, many executives (including MDs & Chairmen) of corporate India. All wealthy communist types, eh?

    Clearly, youe conclusions are way off target. All Universities, including British, American & Indian tend to have professors who are Liberal rather than Conservative. It doesn't follow that their students will have the same ideology. Junior, went to Yale look what he turned out to be!

  13. BeeDee's Avatar
    "Or more likely, the politicians are center-left because they are pandering to the poor rather than it being a result of their education (British or otherwise)."

    The politicians were center-left even when there was no competition or worries about the poor voting in anyone else. So where is the question of pandering to the poor?

    "ROFL!! The Indian wealthy are left wing?"

    Wealthy and elite are not the same. Anyways, check the Forbes rich list to see how many of India's billionaires studied in colleges in the UK as compared to colleges in the US and India.

    "All Universities, including British, American & Indian tend to have professors who are Liberal rather than Conservative. It doesn't follow that their students will have the same ideology. Junior, went to Yale look what he turned out to be!"

    That is why I haven't reached a conclusion yet. Maybe Indian students going to the UK are self selected to tend towards leftism. However the Oxford president's comments on needing more students in the humanities and social sciences are rather curious.
  14. Perumal in India's Avatar
    I agree in general that Indians in general have a tendency to follow the western (white) ideologies and worship anything that comes out of the west with a blonde hair blue eyed package over the practicality of Asian success stories such as Singapore or for that matter China. Hence, an Indian kid is more familiar with Karl Marx, Fabian Socialists, the British Royal family or any famous white person..but ask them about Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore, Chinese leaders after Mao, the leaders of Japan, Korea or Taiwan who made these countries success stories, they would not know and they dont care. White skin worship was behind Indira Gandhi and the Indian commies cozying up to Russians than anything else. This along with the current tendency to employ western white female models paying them millions of dollars to model traditional dresses such as saris over Indian models tells us more about the colonial mentality of the Indians than anything else. Sad, nothing much has changed sixty years since independence.
  15. USC's Avatar
    "The politicians were center-left even when there was no competition or worries about the poor voting in anyone else."

    That was how they cemented their position. Indira Gandhi was the worst example of this. Her policies are the worst examples (Income tax rates of upto 90%, equally punitive wealth taxes and import duties, prohibiting its citizens from taking out more than $6 when going on a trip abroad) of the ills that you speak off. Guess what, she was educated at Oxford but I doubt her policies were a result of her education there.

    "Wealthy and elite are not the same."

    Just curious. Who do you consider the elite? I hope it is not the Indian politicians and bureaucrats. They are the most corrupt and incompetent folks around. Not only are they most happy to accept a bribe but nowadays they will outrightly ask for one.



  16. USC's Avatar
    "However the Oxford president's comments on needing more students in the humanities and social sciences are rather curious."

    I graduated from MIT, Department of Electrical Engineering & Computer Science (the ultimate STEM School). They have a mandatory HASS requirement. I don't think there is anything wrong with those fields of study.
  17. USC's Avatar
    "I agree in general that Indians in general"

    While there is some truth to your post, your generalizations and stereo-typing are way over the line.
  18. b's Avatar
    "I graduated from MIT, ...(the ultimate STEM School)."

    Not sure about the the S&M part of STEM. Experience tells me they suffer from the Harvard complex.
  19. USC's Avatar
    "Experience tells me they suffer from the Harvard complex."

    I have a MBA in Finance from Harvard and did my Junior Year abroad at Cambridge (with whom MIT had/has an Exchange program), so I feel I can comment without bias. I don't think there is a complex per se. I would characterize it as a healty rivalry. That said if I was a Math or Physics major I would probably opt for Cambridge, then for Harvard and lastly for MIT.
  20. b's Avatar
    "I would characterize it as a healty rivalry."

    Okay.

    "That said if I was a Math or Physics major I would probably opt for Cambridge, then for Harvard and lastly for MIT."

    Too broad a statement... like those clueless college ranking guides. Based on subfield, you might find the best groups/schools in other places or countries. Have to actually talk to people in the field of interest to get a feel.
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