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Greg Siskind on Immigration Law and Policy

ARIZONA JUDGE THROWS OUT CHALLENGE TO NEW STATE IMMIGRATION LAW

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An Arizona judge has thrown out a challenge to a new law that would revoke the business licenses of employers violating immigration laws and require employers to participate in the federal e-Verify system. The judge's ruling was based on technicalities - claiming that no one has suffered any harm yet because the law doesn't take effect until January 1st and because the wrong parties were sued (county prosecutors should have been named as defendants rather than the governor). Expect the ruling to be challenged or the case to be refiled since no determination on the actual substance of the complaint has yet been made. But this also means that the law will very likely go in to force on January 1st.

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  1. 's Avatar
    There is no reason not to use e-verify. Finally a state has the courage to take action and do the right thing. Employers of illegal immigrants are the root cause of illegal immigration.
  2. Greg Siskind's Avatar
    >>There is no reason not to use e-verify.
  3. hmm's Avatar
    I think there an easy fix for e-verify. As far as I can see the main concern is that US citizens or LPR will be denied employment. Well, if there is a "no match letter", the employee must show birth certificate or green card, make a notarized photocopy of it, and the employer is to send the copy to SSA/DHS, let the employee work and presume he is legal. After that it should be up to the Government to check whether the documents are valid. If they are not, and the employee is say falsely claiming US citizenship, then the Government now knows exactly where to find and arrest him.

    Can anyone explain me why the Government does not follow this scheme? My only guess is that it is more expensive. Is this the only issue?

    This would certainly deny employment to most unauthorized immigrants. So my other guess is that the government does not really want this to happen, and instead uses the situation around e-verify to make the Congress to act on some CIR...
  4. Legal and no longer waiting's Avatar
    "Can anyone explain me why the Government does not follow this scheme? My only guess is that it is more expensive. Is this the only issue? "

    Well, it is not about illegal immigrants, really. As we have seen, it is the legal immigrants and natural born citizens who will be mostly harrassed under that law, and there are lots of them. So, no the government will not be catching millions of illegals as a result - it will be checking out birth certificates of citizens, and that's not that easy (unlike immigration, birth records are not centralized). It will be VERY expensive. I would say, at least 1% of born citizens and 5% of legal immigrants will have discrepancies, so it is at least 2 million total. So, it is a lot of work and no benefit to the economy.

    You just assume that every legal immigrant and citizen knows their SSN and can legibly spell their name (at least the one they have on the SS card) - no that's not true. I bet at least 1% of citizens don't know their true SSN (many used a wriong number for years and are 100% sure it's their number), and another 2-3% don't remember how their name is spelled on the SS card.
  5. hmm's Avatar
    I think it IS about illegal immigrants, `cause they would face a choice either to go into shadow economy or to get a fake birth certificate or green card, none of which is fun.

    Now I agree this'd be expensive but I think it is only fair the the Government bear the costs, not businesses or employees. After all the Government created this situation through many years of neglect. BTW, with the REAL ID they'd have to do all this anyway.
  6. R. Lawson's Avatar
    A mismatch simply requires further proof. Even at a 10% error rate, this isn't rocket science. I suspect that you are opposed to any efforts to have workplace enforcement. As soon as they get the error rate to 1% you will complain of that being too high.
  7. hmm's Avatar
    R.Lawson: I wish the mismatch happens to you. Perhaps after a 3rd visit to the SSA office your thoughts on the issue will change.

    I am fully for workplace enforcement but the Government should bear the costs. Like with most things it boils down to who is going to pay the bill.
  8. R. Lawson's Avatar
    "R.Lawson: I wish the mismatch happens to you. "

    Thanks for your well wishes.

    I am more concerned about other forms of discrimination - such as the goal of some firms to find a LEGAL reason to disqualify American workers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
  9. Greg Siskind's Avatar
    >>You just assume that every legal immigrant and citizen knows their SSN and can legibly spell their name (at least the one they have on the SS card) - no that's not true. I bet at least 1% of citizens don't know their true SSN (many used a wriong number for years and are 100% sure it's their number), and another 2-3% don't remember how their name is spelled on the SS card.
  10. R. Lawson's Avatar
    Greg, what you fail to realize is that I'm not on a "side". I want to resolve problems. Illegal employment practices are a problem. Do you consider that to be a problem?

    If the e-verify system is so messed up that it won't solve problems, then perhaps I should reconsider my support for it until it will meet its goals.

    I'm not in support of draconian measures supported by people you call "antis", but on the other hand I'm not in support of the total lack of enforcement that we currently see. I would much rather see people who exploit immigrants go to jail that to see immigrants deported.

    I think it would be just fantastic if people on your side would contribute ideas on solving problems - considering your special knowledge of the system. Because you don't contribute ideas, and simply shut down every idea out there, I get the feeling that you don't want to change the status quo.

    You seem in support of another amnesty. Fine, but what ideas do you have to prevent us from having this same (tired) debate 20 years from now? I hope to be fishing then, not talking about illegal immigration.
  11. USC's Avatar
    "Do you think an employer is under any obligation to hold a job offer out to the US citizen while they get the matter cleared up?"

    Consider this scenario, RL. Basic has been implemented and all new hires must be run through it. Your AA just quit. You need to hire a new one immediately or your business will suffer immensely and could even close down.

    You interview a bunch of people. You pick Donna, an American citizen. When you run Donna through Basic she comes back as a positive. Now, Donna shows you her passport, social security card and drivers license so you know she is her legally but you still can't hire her till you get the go ahead from the SSA. Can you afford to wait even one week for the SSA to resolve this or are you going to hire the next best applicant?

    What about Donna's rights? Is the govie going to pay her for her lost wages?

  12. R. Lawson's Avatar
    "When you run Donna through Basic she comes back as a positive. Now, Donna shows you her passport, social security card and drivers license so you know she is her legally but you still can't hire her till you get the go ahead from the SSA. "

    First, let me just say I'm not an expert on the subject of illegal immigration or on e-verify. Like everyone, I have an oppinion. I'm somewhere in the middle on this issue. I support some sort of amnesty, but with strong enough enforcement provisions so that we aren't having this debate every few decades. I consider employers to be the root cause of this issue.

    To this specific scenario you described, that sounds like a problem. Is it likely that this scenario will actually occur? From what I understand the employee can be hired on the spot, but the company must submit additional documentation. Is that wrong?

    I think that fraud resistant documents would help. But there are millions of people who think that is a violation of our privacy. I don't agree, but politically it will be tough to get a national ID. Also, it will be tough to implement. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
  13. Greg Siskind's Avatar
    >>You seem in support of another amnesty. Fine, but what ideas do you have to prevent us from having this same (tired) debate 20 years from now? I hope to be fishing then, not talking about illegal immigration.
  14. USC's Avatar
    "From what I understand the employee can be hired on the spot, but the company must submit additional documentation."

    You are right there. You can hire her and run her name through Basic within 3 days of hiring her. However, if her name comes back as a positive most employers will let her go and pick someone else, if the position is a generic one.
  15. R. Lawson's Avatar
    Greg, who is talking about market based caps? I haven't seen any real discussion of that outside of academia and people like you and I bouncing it around.

    The only "market" solution I have seen has been no caps, and the market decides how many people they want to hire from abroad.

    Are there any politicians pushing for a system based on employment measures in the economy? I would argue that unemployment is not the best measure, but I agree with the general principal. Job growth is the best measure.
  16. Greg Siskind's Avatar
    Roy - Read the McCain-Kennedy CIR bill from last year. The guest worker/green card piece had market-based caps.
  17. To Mr. Lawson's Avatar

    Here is a link to California High school exit exam sample for mathematics

    http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/hs/documents/section105.pdf


    As long as you have these standards you need more people from abroad for sure.

    This test is totally 6th or 7th grade level.
  18. TO Mr. Lawson's Avatar
    Mr. Lawson

    Here is a link to 11th grade math sample test to one of the states in India.

    http://bieap.gov.in/maths.pdf

    Please do a comparision of the standards ..

    Here are links to English too ..


    http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/hs/elaguide.asp

    http://bieap.gov.in/englishpartI.pdf
  19. R. Lawson's Avatar
    "As long as you have these standards you need more people from abroad for sure. This test is totally 6th or 7th grade level. "

    The two concepts are not related. If you flood higher paying jobs with low cost labor, you will create less of an incentive to pursue these more complex jobs.

    I suppose using that logic you could say that if you flood lower paying jobs with low cost labor and restrict higher paying jobs from immigration, there will be a natural flow of indigenous workers into higher paying occupations. Or onto welfare roles.

    Immigration is not a remedy to our education problems. Better education and more opportunities to seek higher education is the remedy to our education problems.

    One of the things India, China, and many of the former Soviet block countries do very well is educating their people. Our country is in serious trouble if we don't invigorate students to excel in math and science.

    Our country needs to be self-reliant when it comes to skilled labor, energy, etc. Market intervention - such as foreign labor subsidies, actually harms our ability to be self reliant.
  20. Indian's Avatar
    "One of the things India, China, and many of the former Soviet block countries do very well is educating their people. Our country is in serious trouble if we don't invigorate students to excel in math and science."

    I can not speak for systems in China or Soviet union countries or their systems because I dont enough about their education systems.

    I can speak for Indian system , Its not government that does it for people but its middle class parents doing for their kids.

    "Immigration is not a remedy to our education problems. Better education and more opportunities to seek higher education is the remedy to our education problems. "

    Ask any 9th grade teacher about the attitudes of the students in the class, You will get an earful.
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