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Greg Siskind on Immigration Law and Policy

DO YOU HEAR THAT SUCKING SOUND?

Rating: 3 votes, 5.00 average.

Main_nafta
In 1992, independent presidential candidate Ross Perot asked that question in a debate with Bill Clinton and George Bush to highlight what he believed would be a massive flow of jobs down to Mexico if the NAFTA free trade agreement passed. The irony is that protectionist immigration policies are starting to drive employers to ship jobs to both Mexico and Canada. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution is now reporting on some of the employees that are headed to Microsoft's new Canada operation - the one they planned on putting in Washington State, but moved north when Congress failed to address the H-1B crisis. It's worth repeating that immigration SAVES American jobs.

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  1. WD's Avatar
    It's not just Canada and Mexico that are benefiting. EU is next in line to cash-in on the self-imposed stupidity

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a23dbdaa-6164-11dc-bf25-0000779fd2ac.html

    Higlights

    1) "While 85 per cent of unskilled labour goes to the EU and only five per cent to the US, some 55 per cent of skilled labour goes to the USA and only five per cent to the EU.

    The Italian wants to REVERSE ( emphasis mine) those figures by means of harmonised policies to allow in millions of extra workers of all abilities. "

    - EU believes US is benefiting from Immigration of skilled works. It want's to reverse the situation by turning Europe into Immigrants favorite destination, instead of US, so that it can compete economically with US. Any doubts, who will be the loser, if they succeed?

    2) "Next month Mr Frattini is to propose an EU "blue card" to compete with the US green card. Skilled workers could apply for two-year residency that could be extended. After five consecutive years living in any number of EU countries they would be allowed to stay permanently.

    He is to table a law laying out minimum working standards for unskilled migrants and forming a one-stop shop for them to apply for work permits."

    It's Every immigrants dream come true. Mobility around a whole continent. Jobs be can switched between countries, where as here you could be in trouble if you move to the next county - labor may be considered invalid! One stop-shop instead of jumping hoops through DoL, USCIS and DoS. Permanent Residency in 5 years [ instead of waiting here for God-knows-how-long.]

    EU is making an offer that you can't refuse . Will US Congress please wakeup and lock the stable before the horses have bolted?

  2. Middle Ground's Avatar
    Funny, Wipro is creating thousands of jobs in the US now - because they can't import the same number of H-1b workers they once did. They are even going to train people with 2 year degrees.

    Microsoft admitted that the H-1b had no impact on their impact to open a development center in Canada. Of course that didn't prevent them from lying and saying they did, for political reasons.

    The H-1b will only create jobs if we attract the best and brightest. Currently, the H-1b is weighted heavily in favor of the cheapest and most exploitable.

    The "H-1b crises" amounts to a few tech companies whining about their inability to attract the cheapest and most exploited workers. As a reminder, here is the list of top H-1b sponsors. Notice how many are offshoring firms from India? They certainly aren't producing American jobs.

    The Top 200 H-1B Employers Of 2006
    http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199601616&pgno=2&queryText=

    (1 - 100)
    Rank Company No. of visas
    1 INFOSYS TECHNOLOGIES LIMITED 4908
    2 WIPRO LIMITED 4002
    3 MICROSOFT (MSFT) CORPORATION 3117
    4 TATA CONSULTANCY SERVICES LIMITED 3046
    5 SATYAM COMPUTER SERVICES LTD 2880
    6 COGNIZANT TECH SOLUTIONS U S CORP 2226
    7 PATNI COMPUTER SYSTEMS INC 1391
    8 IBM (IBM) CORPORATION 1130
    9 ORACLE (ORCL) USA INC 1022
    10 LARSEN & TOUBRO INFOTECH LIMITED 947
    11 HCL AMERICA INC 910
    12 DELOITTE & TOUCHE LLP 890
    13 CISCO SYSTEMS (CSCO) INC 828
    14 INTEL (INTC) CORP 828
    15 I-FLEX SOLUTIONS INC 817
    16 ERNST & YOUNG LLP 774
    17 TECH MAHINDRA AMERICAS INC 770
    18 MOTOROLA (MOT) INC 760
    19 MPHASIS CORPORATION 751
    20 DELOITTE CONSULTING LLP 665


    Here is the list of top 20 L-1 employers in fiscal 2006, according to Durbin and Grassley.
    http://www.informationweek.com/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=RSYE3NOLFYCYEQSNDLPCKHSCJUNN2JVN?articleID=200000857&queryText=h-1b

    Tata Consultancy Services Ltd., 4,887 L-1 visas
    Cognizant Tech Solutions U.S. Corp., 3,520 L-1 visas
    IBM, 1,237 L-1 visas (IBM disputes the figure, saying it had 411 L-1 visas in 2006.)
    Satyam Computer Services Ltd., 950 L-1 visas
    Wipro Ltd., 839 L-1 visas
    HCL America Inc., 511 L-1 visas
    Deloitte & Touche LLP/Deloitte Consulting, 512 L-1 visas
    Patni Computer Systems, 440 L-1 visas
    Intel, 392 L-1 visas
    Kanbay Inc., 329 L-1 visas
    Honeywell International, 320 L-1 visas
    Hewlett-Packard, 316 L-1 visas
    Infosys Tech. Ltd., 294 L-1 visas
    Accenture LLP, 291 L-1 visas
    Caritor Inc., 231 L-1 visas
    Schlumberger Technology Corp., 214 L-1 visas
    Oracle USA Inc., 176 L-1 visas
    Syntel Ltd., 171 L-1 visas
    PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP, 168 L-1 visas
    Microsoft, 168 L-1 visas
  3. WD's Avatar
    Middle Ground:

    "Microsoft admitted that the H-1b had no impact on their impact to open a development center in Canada. Of course that didn't prevent them from lying and saying they did, for political reasons."

    - Before making unsubstantiated allegations, please post the link (where MS admited, as you claim they did)!

    "Notice how many are offshoring firms from India? They certainly aren't producing American jobs."

    - Change laws to prevent Top outsourcing companies (Infy, Wipro, TCS, Satyam, PCS - there are hardly 5-7) from applying H1, L1 visas. Simple.

    "The "H-1b crises" amounts to a few tech companies whining about their inability to attract the cheapest and most exploited workers."

    - Not every person on H1B is a software developer. There are lot of Doctors, Pharmacists, and models too. H1B is the only visa that allows Green Card applicants to be in the US, until they apply to 'Adjust Status'. ( I wasn't on H1 till my GC was applied). No wonder anti-immigrant nativists attack H1B to end all future immigration.
  4. WD's Avatar
    "No wonder anti-immigrant nativists attack H1B to end all future LEGAL immigration"

    Corrected
  5. Middle Ground's Avatar
    "- Change laws to prevent Top outsourcing companies (Infy, Wipro, TCS, Satyam, PCS - there are hardly 5-7) from applying H1, L1 visas. Simple."

    Will YOU lobby help get that passed? Will Greg support that? Greg, how about a position? How about an ILW or AILA position?

    " Not every person on H1B is a software developer. "

    But the majority are in that or a related occupation. Until you address the 1000lb gorrilla in the room - which is the abuse of this program by a select group of IT companies - you can't address the other issues.

    If you want to get unlimited doctors, nurses, and scientists on this program, from a political perspective the quicker you shut out IT companies the better. The loudest opposition to this are IT workers. You solve their headache, and you have your chance.

    Or we can reach a stalemate. I can almost guarantee that you won't get an increase in the H-1b until the loopholes and IT industry abuses are fixed. There is just too much opposition.
  6. USC's Avatar
    "Microsoft admitted......Of course that didn't prevent them from lying"

    >>>>>>>- Before making unsubstantiated allegations, please post the link (where MS admited, as you claim they did)!
  7. Greg Siskind's Avatar
    ?Will YOU lobby help get that passed? Will Greg support that? Greg, how about a position?
  8. Middle Ground's Avatar
    "Having failed to accept the challenge I assume you are unable to substantiate your claim.

    So, just a piece of friendly advise. Calling someone (Microsoft) a liar without proof amounts to slander/libel. "

    USC: Here's your proof. Guess you jumped the gun, again.

    http://www.informationweek.com/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=A5PFAZ1EF0ZRGQSNDLRSKH0CJUNN2JVN?articleID=200900554&queryText=h-1b

    "Microsoft's spokesman said the timing of Thursday's announcement is not directly related to last week's demise in the Senate of the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act, which would have roughly doubled the current 65,000 H-1B visa cap."
  9. USC's Avatar
    "Guess you jumped the gun, again."

    Hardly!! However, you did jump to conclusions.

    "USC: Here's your proof."

    Your original statement was:

    "Microsoft admitted that the H-1b had no impact on their impact to open a development center in Canada. Of course that didn't prevent them from lying and saying they did, for political reasons."

    While the infoweek article states that it wasn't directly related to the demise of CIR (as opposed to your substitution of H1b for CIR; CIR and H1b are hardly synonmous, just ask some of the posters who debate legal v illegal immigrants, on this blog). Also read the other part of the para you left out, which is supplied below:

    Microsoft's spokesman said the timing of Thursday's announcement is not directly related to last week's demise in the Senate of the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act, which would have roughly doubled the current 65,000 H-1B visa cap. "It's not a direct response, but we're being upfront about the fact that immigration issues factored into the decision," said the spokesman.

  10. USC's Avatar
    A google search reveals that PG seems to have an unhealthy obsession with Bill Gates and Microsoft and calling this innovative American company and its equally great American founder liars:

    http://www.programmersguild.org/docs/bill_gates_lies_about_h1b_wages.html

    It reminds me of the following words from Rudyard Kiplings "If":

    http://www.businessballs.com/ifpoemrudyardkipling.htm

    http://www.swarthmore.edu/~apreset1/docs/if.html (ironic that this link is referenced by informationweek; right at the end)

    If you (Microsoft) can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
    Twisted by knaves (PG) to make a trap for fools (PG followers)

    ......And--which is more--you'll be a Man (Microsoft/BG), my son!

    I know that Middle Ground is no longer on the PG Board (good for him) and I trust he doesn't blindly follow all that they put out!

  11. Middle Ground's Avatar
    "?Will YOU lobby help get that passed? Will Greg support that? Greg, how about a position?
  12. Greg Siskind's Avatar
    Middle Ground - You're the latest in a long string of anti-immigrants who have shown up in the comments, throw around a lot of challenges and outrage, and expect to get a rise. Re-read my last message regarding enforcing existing laws.

    By the way, if you don't like what I have to say, there's no gun to your head forcing you to hang out here.
  13. Middle Ground's Avatar
    "I know that Middle Ground is no longer on the PG Board (good for him) and I trust he doesn't blindly follow all that they put out!"

    First, I am anonymous ;-)

    That said, I don't interact with the PG daily. If I were leading the organization it would pattern itself after the IEEE-USA and focus equally on career development. And it wouldn't be swayed by immigration reformers - since the overall immigration debate is outside the scope of the PG mandate.

    I think the PG has identified a serious problem though.

    Bill Gates has made statements that are not true. For example, he claimed in sworn testimony that Microsoft's H-1b workers are paid over $100k. I don't have the exact statement on hand, but it was implied that most workers make more than $100k. The truth is that almost all of them make less, according to public records.

    That said, Microsoft pays their H-1b workers better wages than most companies. Bill Gates didn't need to make that mis-statement, yet he did. I would go as far as saying that Microsoft doesn't appear to abuse the program. So why did Gates mis-speak anyways?

    It's quite baffling that Gates didn't make sure his statements were more accurate. Perhaps people at Microsoft are afraid of correcting one of the richest men on Earth.
  14. Middle Ground's Avatar
    "You're the latest in a long string of anti-immigrants"

    Stop lying to the people about this. I think I touched a nerve.

    Maybe if you were on my payroll your attitude would change. Adios.
  15. 's Avatar
    "Bill Gates has made statements that are not true. For example, he claimed in sworn testimony that Microsoft's H-1b workers are paid over $100k. I don't have the exact statement on hand, but it was implied that most workers make more than $100k. The truth is that almost all of them make less, according to public records."

    What he said is true. The public records only show base salary. They don't show yearly bonuses, stock based compensation or the cost of the gold-plated medical benefits ($17,000 for a family). Add it up and you're looking at a number comfortably north of 100K for any employee except for the very entry level.

    IMHO, using the base salary as a metric is another serious deficiency in the way the DOL programs work because it penalizes employers offering better benefits and shows employers who have poor benefits and pay mostly in cash in a good light.

  16. USC's Avatar
    "First, I am anonymous ;-)"

    So you are ;-)
  17. USC's Avatar
    "Stop lying to the people about this"

    I think we all need to calm down a little!
  18. Middle Ground's Avatar
    "IMHO, using the base salary as a metric is another serious deficiency in the way the DOL programs work because it penalizes employers offering better benefits and shows employers who have poor benefits and pay mostly in cash in a good light."

    That's fine, as long as you are comparing apples to apples. Don't allow Bill Gates to use his definition of salary (including benefits, etc) and then compare that with the DOL's "prevailing wage" which falls well short of market wages. If you want to define it how Gates does, then prevailing wage should be market rates + all the benies.

    There is a book about lying with statistics. You can easily mislead people by cherry picking data. That's what the IT industry has done.
  19. Greg Siskind's Avatar
    If you don't like DOL's prevailing wages, then ***** about how they calculate those wages. The federal government perpetually underfunds this process such that the data is usually old, the people coming up with the prevailing wage determinations are often undertrained, and the occupation is incorrectly selected (either to high a level or too low). If the rules are properly implemented and enforced and there are still abuses, then discuss changing the law. I have yet to hear Middle Ground offer a defense to this basic argument. And it's because his real agenda is to to keep immigrants out, not end exploitation.
  20. USC's Avatar
    "Don't allow Bill Gates to use his definition of salary (including benefits, etc) and then compare that with the DOL's "prevailing wage" which falls well short of market wages"

    Let's see if we can get some resolution as far as MSFT is concerned. Do you have data or an opinion as to how much MORE, on the average, MSFT would have to pay per IT worker if they couldn't import H1b or Green Carders?
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