HOW AMNESTY BROUGHT YOU THE CAMERA PHONE

To hear anti-immigrant activists speak, you would think that the three million unlawfully present immigrants who legalized in 1986 were a bunch of welfare cheats who went out and committed crimes in between stealing a job or two. What we don't hear is just how successful that program was in terms of allowing many, many people to come out of the shadows and lead productive - some very product - lives.

My friend Sam pointed out that an individual I profiled last month was one of those beneficiaries. Philippe Kahn, the founder of software giant Borland and the inventor of the camera phone, came to the US on a tourist visa in the early 80s, overstayed and then was able to legalize his status in 1986 in the legalization program. Kahn landed a job with Hewlett-Packard in 1982, but lost the job because of his immigration status. After getting the green card in 1986, Kahn went on to achieve greatness.

For all those who attack the concept of "amnesty" will you surrender your cell phones in protest?

Comments

[ISKANDAR]

Hi everyone
I came to USA on F1 visa status. I live with a host family. My host dad is a Major in the National Guard, also he served in Iraq.
So i just really want to join US Army, I love army, but I want to be enrolled only in US Army because it has a good conditions to serve. I know I don't have a green card, I want to apply.
But can US Army help me getting a legal residency in US?
Thank you

[grouchy]

Hey dudes! Ex-mayor Guilliani mentioned in one of his GOP campaign before about this microchip. He suggested to microchip all immigrants living in the US.

Remember that microchip is usually used for thorough study and research to pets or animals especially in the wild. Examples are species that are in danger of extinction.They used microchip or any gadget just to monitor these species all day and night.

On the other hand, we humans are the highest form of animal order. The unique quality of thinking in humans is the distinguishable characteristic that the lower class animals don't have.

So do you think it is necessary to implant microchip to humans since we are capable of everything; to learn and to follow, to know what is right from wrong, etc., that the lower form of animals cannot?

Have you ever thought that putting microchip onto yourself is more worst than the National ID?

Hence, I will only agree with you if you suggest to put microchip instead, to the notorious criminals and is more reasonable and useful step to track them easily anytime or day and night.

Think about the effects of microchip thoroughly on you.
If they push through that kind of method, only one push of the key of their computer, they will know all your body language even in the dark place...or even making love to your partner they can tell all the details, hmmmn.

[JoeF]

"However, once you place the systems in place (microchip) all it takes is one evil person and voila you have a crime against humanity. Fortunately, none of the Presidential candidates are likely to be that evil person. But who knows what the next 30 years will bring!"

It doesn't have to be a president. I am sure J. Edgar Hoover or Joe McCarthy would have loved to be able to track certain people. Fortunately, the technology wasn't there yet. Now it is.

[Greg Siskind]

»To rephrase, the idea that "amnesty" brings things like the camera phone is a logical fallacy of confusing correlation with causation.<<

This post really blows the minds of the antis like yourself because it very effectively drives the point home that just like many of the poor, downtrodden low-skilled immigrants at Ellis Island went on to achieve greatness, the same is very likely to be true if we legalize the current immigrant pool. The only difference is that we had open immigration 100 years ago and today we have effectively no legal way for people to come.

[USC]

Sorry for the typos, BTW, why not get a handle?

"the end advanced (deportation of illegal immigrants) does not qualify as a crime againt humanity."

True. However, once you have the systems in place (microchip) all it takes is one evil person and voila you have a crime against humanity. Fortunately, none of the Presidential candidates are likely to be that evil person. But who knows what the next 30 years will bring! We currently seem to manage fine without a national id.

[USC]

"the end advanced (deportation of illegal immigrants) does not qualify as a crime againt humanity."

True. However, once you place the systems in place (microchip) all it takes is one evil person and voila you have a crime against humanity. Fortunately, none of the Presidential candidates are likely to be that evil person. But who knows what the next 30 years will bring! We currently seem to manage fine with a national id.

[paul]

Greg, sure. I already said that everybody's labor is valuable and needed. My point was that "amnesty" is not the way you create the camera phone. Paul Kahn was an exception. If you want more Paul Kahn's and more inventions like the camera phone, then you need a targeted policy. To rephrase, the idea that "amnesty" brings things like the camera phone is a logical fallacy of confusing correlation with causation.

"Why not tattooing the number??? It has been done before..."

Easily faked. But yes, the microchip is the modern version of the tattoo.

"Maybe history indeed repeats itself."

Indeed. The microchip is the logical end of the slippery slope towards a national id. Enough people seem comfortable with the idea of a national ID given that REAL ID passed Congress. I suppose we should console ourselves with the fact that the end advanced (deportation of illegal immigrants) does not qualify as a crime againt humanity.

[JoeF]

"I have an idea - we need to microchip people so we know who they are."

Why not tattooing the number??? It has been done before...
That's sarcasm, if you don't get it.
But the generation of people who had to endure that is soon gone.
Maybe history indeed repeats itself.

[USC]

"Pray how are you going to prevent forged documents if you go with a national ID? Plus, how do you ensure that people always carry it with them so that excuses that lead to "catch and release" situations such as "sorry, i forgot to keep it with me" are not possible?"

You propose the perfect solution and he wants to treat it as a joke. All your effort down the drain!!LOL!!

[USC]

"It is harder to counter what I suggested, so you choose to ignore it...well, have a good afternoon, I am out of here."

There is nothing to counter because you haven't put forth any argument to counter. You have advanced only opinions and those in no way, shape or form qualify as facts. You have only made unsupported assertions. For instance,

"First, I see no trouble with fingerprinting and carrying an ID (provided it fits into wallet); to me this no more offensive then a search at the airport."

You are entirely entitled to your opinion even if you are not able to logically support it and that is what the above qualifies as.

Now, there was a prior poster, alex, who had the same bizarre fascination about the ID being able fit into his wallet. If you are not him you should hook up with him and discuss this further. He probably won't find it laughable which is how I view it. Thus you will have a more productive discussion with him, "Birds of a feather flock together" you know.

BTW, If you want to express anti-illegal immigrant opinions (other antis do it all the time) that is fine but stop using this as a shield for your opinions:

"P.S. For those who do not remember I advocate legalizing all illegal immigrants (adults included), so do not jump on me."

So, yes, I will ignore your opinions because I find them worthless and a waste of time, if you come up with solid facts I will be ready, willing and able to counter them. Good day to you too!

"IMO, all this nonsense about microchips is boring (how many times a joke needs to be repeated?)."

Pray how are you going to prevent forged documents if you go with a national ID? Plus, how do you ensure that people always carry it with them so that excuses that lead to "catch and release" situations such as "sorry, i forgot to keep it with me" are not possible?

[hmm]

IMO, all this nonsense about microchips is boring (how many times a joke needs to be repeated?). Of course, it is much easier to fight an imaginary enemy, so this is why you guys love doing that. It is harder to counter what I suggested, so you choose to ignore it...well, have a good afternoon, I am out of here.

[USC]

"Anyone who is not chipped is not authorized to be in the US. And can be detained for deportation."

Yes. Yes. Moreover, we could require the grocery stores, gas stations, restaurants, banks, landlords, attorneys (that's you Greg), hotels and airlines to not provide services to those not chipped. The illegals would either die of starvation or be forced to leave the country. Obviously you are a genius. What are you doing posting here? You should be running for President!!

Still feel the microchips would be workable. The fact that they cause cancer is not proved and it does have FDA approval. At worst the health concerns can be addressed the same way that they are for vaccines.

In practice,

1. Babies born on US soil can be chipped at birth.

2. Everyone else gets chipped the next time they see a doctor.

3. Legal immigrants / non-immigrants get chipped at consulates abroad or on entry to the US.

Now the problem becomes tractable. Anyone who is not chipped is not authorized to be in the US. And can be detained for deportation.

[hmm]

"You want this to happen to American citizens because GCers are required to carry GCs? The way to rectify the situation is to dispense with it for everyone and not make a bad situation worse."

First, I see no trouble with fingerprinting and carrying an ID (provided it fits into wallet); to me this no more offensive then a search at the airport. Second, I think if this happens to everyone (including citizens) then various protective mechanisms would be put in place, and for immigrants the situation will become much better overall. Remember the story of a State of Wasington laywer whose fingerprint was confused with someone related to Madrid train bombing? The guy got $2M at the end. I suspect this happy-ending would never happen if he were an immigrant.

[USC]

"I have an idea - we need to microchip people so we know who they are. This is routinely done for pets, so why not do it for people?"

The technology is already here (people are getting chipped) and officially approved courtesy of the FDA. We just need to make it mandatory by law to solve all our problems (sic):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microchip_implant_(human)

Imagine, the possibilities, your passport could be stored on it, your DL, your arrest record, your educational history, work history, civil and criminal litigation history. A great(sic) security measure, should certainly make the cravens sleep easier.

Of course the fact that these devices might cause cancer shouldn't concern us, for at least we shall be safe from the terrorists:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/08/AR2007090800997_pf.html

Hmm:

"Those against a national id should know that this id is already in place for all (legal) immigrants who are required by law to carry GC or passport, and who are fingerprinted each time they enter US."

First, GCers are not fingerprinted. Only persons on a non-immigrant visa are. INS sought to fingerprint GCers through a proposed rule that they published last year. I made my objections known to the proposed rule. I also objected to the proposed rule attempting to implement the US VISIT program.

Second, the requirement to carry GCs is obeserved more in the breach than the observance.

"So if your objection to a national id is humanitarian (people should not be tracked easily etc), then on the same grounds you should also fight the existing national id for immigrants."

Of course. I have no problem with what you suggest. No one should be required to carry a mandatory ID.

"Unless of course you think that immigrants are inferior human beings and they deserve to be easily tracked and fingerprinted."

You want this to happen to American citizens because GCers are required to carry GCs? The way to rectify the situation is to dispense with it for everyone and not make a bad situation worse. Reminds of the philosophy the communist countries follow:"Equality in Poverty"

[hmm]

Those against a national id should know that this id is already in place for all (legal) immigrants who are required by law to carry GC or passport, and who are fingerprinted each time they enter US. So if your objection to a national id is humanitarian (people should not be tracked easily etc), then on the same grounds you should also fight the existing national id for immigrants. Unless of course you think that immigrants are inferior human beings and they deserve to be easily tracked and fingerprinted. But then you should be man enough to say so.

I have an idea - we need to microchip people so we know who they are. This is routinely done for pets, so why not do it for people?

[hmm]

"So you support REAL ID."

Well, I never actually read the act, so maybe what I have heard is wrong,
and maybe REAL ID ACT is unworkable, but I surely support the idea of having a national id. Maybe you do not have to carry it all the time, (even though see no trouble with that), but you have to know where it is
so iff you are arrested they could go to your house and check who the hell you are. The only info that needs to be encoded into the ID is your name, photograph, and biometrics (like fingerprints). So that a qualified person could instantly check whether this is you not anyone else. There should also be fingeprint readers readily avaiable on sale. Then it shall all depend on what database they have access to: driving records, credit check, immigration, eg a traffic cop would not have access to your FBI file etc.

Now I never lived in NY but I doubt they do not ask for a picture ID when renting apartments. Before running a credit check they need to known it is your SSN, don't they? Certainly, if I rent my property I would ask for a picture ID. Wouldn't you?

[USC]

"What is likely to happen is that after the deadline NY residents will not be able to go through airport security."

Sounds like a winning idea to me, no New Yorkers allowed on planes. We vote you know!! So, either the Feds can go through with implementing REAL ID or they can the ban New Yorkers from taking to the skies.

"This would be a major disruption to business, and this is what I would be worried, even though I still have my foreign passport, so I would be just fine."

I or my fellow New Yorkers wouldn't be worried. The Feds should gear up to issue a lot of passports/alternate IDs or else THEY should be worried for destroying the nations economy!!

"Fair enough. They certainly should. And this is what I think REAL ID does. States would of course be happier if Feds compenstate some of their extra expenses on REAL IDs. This would end most objections."

So you support REAL ID. There is not much point in having a national ID if it is not mandatory to carry it. You need to think things through. What would the penalty be for not carrying it? How do you deal with rogue cops stopping African Americans/Hispanics every 5 minutes and asking for their ID? You still haven't spelt out what type of data should be on the IDs. In the fight against terrorism it would be useful to know things like:

Marital Status (single person more like to be a suicide bomber)
Religion (Persons of Muslim faith more like to be Al Qaida)
Occupation (Person with pilot license more likely to crash plane into WTC)

etc etc

"I merely said that if you WANT to get an ID, you can get one."

Read your prior post that is not what you said. You said:

"This way illegal immigrants would be eligible for DL but not for an ID."

Which brings me to the next question, if you want a national ID to weed out the terrorists and if the illegals don't have a criminal record why shouldn't the illegals be able to get one? Certainly, if they are not terrorists and if you support a DL for them you should support an ID for them too!

"Did you ever try to rent an apartment, sign up with a gas company, or buy a car without an ID."

You don't need an ID for any of those things, not in NY anyway. You do have to provide your social security number for a credit check but no one asks for any id or for the ss card.

"You suggest DL should only be used for driving, not for no other purpose, right? Well, good luck. Most people would say, hell with privacy, please give us some ID back."

LOL! You might feel this way but I doubt that you are in the majority. I know a few people are scared witless to give away all their rights in the name of false security. Do you have any data to support this wild assertion?

"BTW, in all states where I lived you could indeed get an ID that does not give you right to drive."

True enough and now NY is going to give the non-drivers ID to the illegals. A smart and enlightened move, hopefully more States will follow the path blazed by NY.

[hmm]

"The airlines could issue their picture ID and so could the beer manufacturers."

Oh, my. That would be a real mess... But of course, none of this will happen.

""If I lived in NY, I'd be worried."
Just because you have to carry an additional id? Talk about frivolous objections! Frankly, I am glad that NY, along with a handful of other states, has taken the right stance on this issue. I don't give a damn as to what the Feds do about REAL ID."

What is likely to happen is that after the deadline NY residents will not be able to go through airport security. This would be a major disruption to business, and this is what I would be worried, even though I still have my foreign passport, so I would be just fine.

"In this country we don't have a national ID. If the proponents of a National ID want one they should be man enough to stand up and make a case for it"

Fair enough. They certainly should. And this is what I think REAL ID does. States would of course be happier if Feds compenstate some of their extra expenses on REAL IDs. This would end most objections.

"Now, you are proposing that it be mandatory for everyone to carry an ID for proof of their citizenship/residence status? What information do you suggest should the ID contain? Race? Religion? Occupation? DOB? Height? Weight? Fingerprints? Iris scan? Home address? Work address? Citizenship Status? Place of Birth?"

I merely said that if you WANT to get an ID, you can get one. It is damn hard to live without an ID though. Did you ever try to rent an apartment, sign up with a gas company, or buy a car without an ID. You suggest DL should only be used for driving, not for no other purpose, right? Well, good luck. Most people would say, hell with privacy, please give us some ID back.

BTW, in all states where I lived you could indeed get an ID that does not give you right to drive. So the system is already in place. Driving and ID are separate.

[USC]

"UCS: what are you so happy about?"

This is great news. A real slap in the face for the REAL ID act!!

"You want to carry a separate document to fly domestically, or to buy beer/tobacco?"

Sure, why not. A little inconvenience is worth it for the cause of democracy. The airlines could issue their picture ID and so could the beer manufacturers.

Additionally, as late as the early 1990s IDs weren't required to board an aircraft. If security personnel do their job and properly screen passengers there is no reason they should be required now and there is no reason the government needs to check your name against secret and inaccurate databases.

"If I lived in NY, I'd be worried."

Just because you have to carry an additional id? Talk about frivolous objections!

"Or maybe you think Feds would not keep their word, and REAL ID will be tossed to garbage? I would not be so sure.."

Frankly, I am glad that NY, along with a handful of other states, has taken the right stance on this issue. I don't give a damn as to what the Feds do about REAL ID.

In this country we don't have a national ID. If the proponents of a National ID want one they should be man enough to stand up and make a case for it instead of trying to sneak around and playing under-handed games.

"and the other one to be used as a (Federal and State) ID."

No thanks. If the Feds want a national ID they need to pass the necessary legislation and issue their own IDs.

"This way illegal immigrants would be eligible for DL but not for an ID."

Now, you are proposing that it be mandatory for everyone to carry an ID for proof of their citizenship/residence status? What information do you suggest should the ID contain? Race? Religion? Occupation? DOB? Height? Weight? Fingerprints? Iris scan? Home address? Work address? Citizenship Status? Place of Birth?

[hmm]

UCS: what are you so happy about? You want to carry a separate document to fly domestically, or to buy beer/tobacco? If I lived in NY, I'd be worried. Or maybe you think Feds would not keep their word, and REAL ID will be tossed to garbage? I would not be so sure..

I think a good solution would be for NY to offer people two types of cards: one for driving only, and the other one to be used as a (Federal and State) ID. This way illegal immigrants would be eligible for DL but not for an ID.
It should be also possible to combine the two in one card, but it is best to leave that choice to the applicant. Say, a lot of people in NYC do not drive, so they just need an ID, not DL.

[USC]

New Yorkers to GOP, Bring! It! On!

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-stimmi0929,0,699060.story

Some of us will be very happy to see the Feds not recognize NY DLs as ID for Federal purposes. Many of us New Yorkers will be even happier if the DL stops serving as an ID for State and other purposes. The purpose of a DL is proof that one is qualified to operate the indicated class of motor vehicle. The US of A will have taken a major step forward if that is all DLs become good for.

INS lies to Long Island police department:

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/ny-linass285392949sep28,0,5215199.story

[Legal and waiting]

"What I don't understand is simple. There is a visa for these talented (which, undoubtedly, the wirednews kids are) kids to come to America and styudy. It's called the F-1 visa. "

You would assume someone who claims to be an immigrant would have some basic understanding of how the immigration law works. In fact, no.

Dear IndianGuy, these kids are 'inadmissible'. That means they cannot change or adjust to ANY status. Not to F1, not to H1, not to LPR, even if they marry a citizen. If they exit the country, there will be a 10-year admissibility bar. They will not be able even come to visit their family.

So, that's the answer why a 'backdoor procedure' is critical for them.

Your suggestion for them to stand 'in the same line' would be valid, if addition of these children would not make the line 10-20 years longer. Would you still like to add them?

[Ravencourt]

"So, theoretically, 10 million students can be admitted every given year. After finishing their studies, these talented students can work in USA legally on anoher visa. It's called the h-1b visa."

The only problem with that scenario is that there are only (currently) 65,000 H-1B issued per fiscal year. 65,000 is a much smaller number than 10,000,000. So that'd be 9,935,000 students deported each year, given the demonstrated logic.

On top of that, consider that the 65,000 are also sought out primarily by skilled workers. In April, roughly 125,000 skilled workers submitted a petition for a H-1B. At least 60,000 of them won't be moving to their job come October.

There needs to be a "Back Door" for these 'kids' because the "Front Door" is currently broken and in need of repair, and neither they, nor the current batch of skilled workers, should have be be submitted to *another* "first come, first served" fight on April 1st over a handful of work Visas.

[Legal Immi]

Thanks Greg on your insight on undocumented in army. As far as I understand there should be a special waiver for an undocumented to serve. I also think that joining military is not as easy as taking a Job at Mc Donalds or Wal Malmart.

[grouchy]

Crazy! These people in congress who play as solid anti-immigrants are severely afflicted with "Amnesia Syndrome" that's why the only words that retained to their senile brains are simply the 3 words, "NO TO AMNESTY". If the circuity of their brains show only this kind of pattern then maybe I would say that their amnesiac is irreversible in nature.
So don't be surprised folks if these anti-immigrant group would always say just the 3 words on every vote that they make on the floor because they're just echoing these same words even a million times everytime you ask them.
If this Amnesia Syndrome epidemic will stay long onto them, the chances are very slim for these illegal immigrants to become legal here in the US.
How awful for these illegals that the dream that they're longin' for become so elusive upon their reach.

[indianGuy]

hmm wrote : "IndianGuy: I am sure "dream act kids" would settle for any legal status, but in a bargain it never hurts to ask for more."

The art of bargaining in this context is not about asking for all of it and eventually receive none of it. The trick here is to ask for a little, once that comes through, ask for some more next year, once that happens ask for little more the next year.

Incidentally, this is how Durbin and co are playing you guys. They come up with gradiose ideas, monster bills and revolutionary changes that they know will never pass. They invoke arcane senate rules (read the clay-pigieon rule) which are sure to make the conservative base all worked up and crying conspiracy. Take the Dream Act for example. Couldn't they have introduced it as a separate bill? They seem have time to discuss stupid newspapaer ads! So they came up with the brilliant idea of offering the Dream Act as an ammendment to of all things the DOD bill. These guys, Durbin, Reid are smart. You don't become majority leader and whip for nothing.

[hmm]

Another quote from my link below.

"Apparently," says Lt. Col. Margaret Stock, an immigration attorney and professor of military law at West Point, "nobody at the Pentagon reviewed the [regulations] on immigrants when the war started." She adds, "If the Pentagon has any immigration attorneys, I haven't met them."

[Greg Siskind]

Another comment from August from this blog from Margaret Stock:

"Michael Cole didn't post the full statute. It's also important to note that this statute was enacted in January 2006, and before January 2006, anyone (regardless of immigration status) could enlist in the US military during wartime. But here's the full, current statute--and be sure to read to the end, which gives you the exceptions to what Michael Cole posted. He is incorrect in his statement that "[a]n illegal alien may not enlist in the U.S. military." An illegal alien can enlist if the Service Secretary concerned approves the enlistment, as described in the statute. 10 USC § 504. Persons not qualified (a) Insanity, desertion, felons, etc. No person who is insane, intoxicated, or a deserter from an armed force, or who has been convicted of a felony, may be enlisted in any armed force. However, the Secretary concerned may authorize exceptions, in meritorious cases, for the enlistment of deserters and persons convicted of felonies. (b) Citizenship or residency. (1) A person may be enlisted in any armed force only if the person is one of the following: (A) A national of the United States, as defined in section 101(a)(22) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(22)). (B) An alien who is lawfully admitted for permanent residence, as defined in section 101(a)(20) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(20)). (C) A person described in section 341 of one of the following compacts: (i) The Compact of Free Association between the Federated States of Micronesia and the United States (section 201(a) of Public Law 108-188 (117 Stat. 2784; 48 U.S.C. 1921 note)). (ii) The Compact of Free Association between the Republic of the Marshall Islands and the United States (section 201(b) of Public Law 108-188 (117 Stat. 2823; 48 U.S.C. 1921 note)). (iii) The Compact of Free Association between Palau and the United States (section 201 of Public Law 99-658 (100 Stat. 3678; 48 U.S.C. 1931 note)). (2) Notwithstanding paragraph (1), the Secretary concerned may authorize the enlistment of a person not described in paragraph (1) if the Secretary determines that such enlistment is vital to the national interest."

[Greg Siskind]

From Colonel Margaret Stock's comments on my blog from August:

»I should also add that Congress clearly intended that illegal or unauthorized immigrants be allowed to serve under some circumstances. Under two other statutes, not listed above, Congress requires unauthorized foreign males age 18-26 to register for Selective Service (the draft), and allows unauthorized immigrants of any gender who serve on at least one day of active duty to get expedited citizenship in wartime, provided they serve honorably (and their citizenship can be revoked if they do not serve honorably for five years). There would be no point to the Selective Service registration and expedited citizenship exceptions regarding illegal or unauthorized immigrants if they are not permitted to serve at all. Interestingly, there was no statutory restriction on Navy and Marine Corps enlistment of unauthorized immigrants, even in peacetime, until January 2006. (There was a policy restriction, but not a statutory one.) So the Navy and Marine Corps could have legally enlisted many unauthorized immigrants until January 2006, even without the approval of the Secretary of the Navy. The change in January 2006 made it harder in some ways for the Navy and Marine Corps, and easier for the Army and Air Force (which can now enlist unauthorized immigrants in both wartime and peacetime, with the approval of the Secretary concerned). I'm told that the Navy and Marine Corps asked for the change to the law, but do not know why those Services requested this change."

[Greg Siskind]

»I am not sure if someone can join army without being a permanent resident or citizen.<<

Legal Imm - Actually they can during wartime, though most people - even people in the military - do not seem to be aware of this. The executive order from the President allows for it. Margaret Stock posted on this in the comments of this blog several weeks ago and she's the nation's foremost expert on the subject.

[Greg Siskind]

Hey Paul - Two things. First, picking the country's food is pretty important in my opinion (unless you have somehow figured out a way for us to survive or you like the idea of American having to depend on other countries to fee our people. Second, today's lettuce picker is yesteryear's Italian or Jewish sewing machine operator on New York's Lower East Side whose kids went on to become titans in every industry in the country. Or pick another generation and another immigrant group. First generation immigrants often have taken the dirty jobs in order for their kids to have opportunities to advance.

[Legal Immi]

General qualifications to join army

U.S. citizen or permanent resident alien
17-41 years old
Healthy and in good physical condition
In good moral standing
High school or Equivalent Education

http://www.goarmy.com/JobCatList.do?redirect=true&fw=careerindex&bl=Careers

As far as I know Dont ask dont tell policy is about sexual orientation rather than immigration status.

I think if someone lies about his or her immigration status or steals someone elses identity to join army , He or She is inviting bigger trouble.

[hmm]

In practice, one does not need a GC to join the Army. They rely on "don't ask, don't tell"

http://www.metroactive.com/bohemian/08.29.07/news-0735.html

"How many of these young Latino recruits are illegal immigrants? "Nobody knows," says Flavia Jimenez, an immigration policy analyst at the National Council of La Raza. "But what we do know is that recruiters may not be up to speed on everybody's legal status. We also know that a significant number of [illegals] have died in Iraq." The recruitment of illegal immigrants is particularly intense in Los Angeles, where 75 percent of high school students are Latino."

[Legal Immi]

"BTW, even illegal immigrants can join the military. They might start joining in greater numbers if it secured them a green card, but perhaps most people who wanted to risk their lifes in Iraq have already joined the army, so it is not clear whether Dream Act would really help the army."

I am not sure if someone can join army without being a permanent resident or citizen.

[Legal Immi]

"P.S. For those who do not remember I advocate legalizing all illegal immigrants (adults included), so do not jump on me."

I dont think most of the visitors to this blog have a problem with legalization or amnesty for undocumented immigrants.

Most of the people would have problem if the rules are changed for them exclusively.E.g. Exclusive elimination of country wide quotas in Dream Act or Legalization while retaing these country quotas in Legal immigration system.

[hmm]

IndianGuy: I am sure "dream act kids" would settle for any legal status, but in a bargain it never hurts to ask for more.

BTW, even illegal immigrants can join the military. They might start joining in greater numbers if it secured them a green card, but perhaps most people who wanted to risk their lifes in Iraq have already joined the army, so it is not clear whether Dream Act would really help the army.

P.S. For those who do not remember I advocate legalizing all illegal immigrants (adults included), so do not jump on me.

[indianGuy]

I think some of the points raised are valid. They indeed will be considered illegal when applying for student or work visas and thus may not qualify for them. Well, my suggestion then is that create a new category of visas for them so they can work or study legally in this country. Visas but not green cards. For green cards and citizenship they should stand in the same line we are in.

[INSpector]

Continuing the another voice comments regarding "The Indian Guys Posts"

Those kids are not elegible to ask for an H1B because they are already considered illegals, so plain and simple there are not options for them evrn the H1B, TN or O visas.

[Another voice]

"What I don't understand is simple. There is a visa for these talented (which, undoubtedly, the wired news kids are) kids to come to America and study. It's called the F-1 visa."

When these kids were brought here they did not have knowledge of the F-1 visas and their parents most of them are low skilled workers that did not know the language and many things about coming here legally nor they could qualify to do it. Most of them did not have a choice they had a bad life and were looking for a better one. Kids are paying the price for a decision that they did not make yet they like any other human want a better life for themselves and their families.

And guess what, there is no cap on the number of F-1 visas. So, theoretically, 10 million students can be admitted every given year. After finishing their studies, these talented students can work in USA legally on another visa. It's called the h-1b visa. They can then work towards their green cards and eventual citizenship. Why should there be a BACKDOOR PROCEDURE for certain kids who happen to be undocumented?

Most children in this situation unlike in India come from countries that were not a British colony therefore they did not speak English until they came here and grew up in the US which is where they learned it. Basically they never had a choice of coming here legally they found themselves here illegally since they were little kids with no other course of action. That is why Dream is important.

[drew from immigrants list]

You're right about ALIPAC being nothing. They raised something like $70,000 this year & have spent $50,000 without actually contributing to anyone. Last year Walter Jones Jr of NC was the only person they actually contributed anything to. They also talk about their number of "hits" but a hit isn't the same thing as a visitor.

[USC]

"This is how the DREAM was lost."

I am sure that ALIPAC wants us to buy this. But all this is a case is of them blowing their own horn. My understanding is that they had little to no impact.

[indianGuy]

What I don't understand is simple. There is a visa for these talented (which, undoubtedly, the wirednews kids are) kids to come to America and styudy. It's called the F-1 visa. And guess what, there is no cap on the number of F-1 visas. So, theoretically, 10 million students can be admitted every given year. After finishing their studies, these talented students can work in USA legally on anoher visa. It's called the h-1b visa. They can then work towards their greencards and eventual citizenship. Why should there be a BACKDOOR PROCEDURE for certain kids who happen to be undocumented?

I think Paul wanted an example of a "lettuce picker" and "illegal" but managed to become a great inventor or successful businessman. I think you can find a lot of those stories.

[TX]

This is how the DREAM was lost.

http://www.mmdnewswire.com/alipac-activists-helped-defet-drem-act-amnesty-2302-2.html

We can call learn something from these anti's so the next time around it's our voices that our louder.

Time and time again, and even this time around I wrote to both my Senators, even knowing full well that both TX senators will probably never support this bill, but I wanted them to hear me anyway. I got a sorry update from Cornyn instead about how he was successful in making sure that non-defense related items are not attached to defense appropriations. Funny how these same Republicans never talked about non related items when Republicans held the Senate. I wrote back (I hope his staff actually reads my email) asking him to do something about his own bill, the SKIL bill.

[TX]

Thanks JoeF. I was looking for an update on these kids this morning. I was thinking that maybe these kids were deported as well, you know, since the anti's have nothing better to do with their time then go after innocent kids who could really make a difference.

[JoeF]

The story that TX referred to:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.04/robot_pr.html

There is a fund set up for them: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.04/donate.html

These kids are really great and deserve to be able to go to college.

[Legal and waiting]

The disctribution of educated/uneducated in todays illelgal population is the same it was in the illegal population in 1986, there is just more of both. There is a bunch of people who came on studen or work visas and stayed illegally. But that is not what's important. What's impaortant is the talents of children of whose who should be legalized. Children of immigrants generally raise up the challenge and get college degrees at a much higher rate than that of econimically comparable natives.

[paul]

True, the labor of all immigrants is needed and valuable. What I was trying to say is that Paul Kahn is a better example for the need of immigration reform that targets high-skilled immigrants rather than for the so-called "amnesty".

[Another voice]

Hey all immigrants contribute to this country today and have contributed some how in the past at different levels. The point of this is that there are contributions that you never hear of because the anti- agenda depicts all immigrants as welfare suckers and criminals.

[paul]

But he was from Europe and from a different crowd. He was well educated too and had a Master's in Math. Don't expect the same achievements from today's lettuce pickers.

[TX]

While searching the web on this I was surprised to come across many stories on brilliant undocumented kids that could certainly make a difference in this country if givin a chance. This one is a good one, it seems like this kid is highly intelligent. I still can't believe that the Senate is not doing anything to make sure that this country retains these bright individuals.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/brown/540787,CST-NWS-brown04.article

[Another voice]

This is a good story I am sure there are plenty more out there that we don't know about. Its too bad that main stream media will not report them during the Immigration debate of any measure.

[TX]

Wow Greg, I had no idea. I wonder how many other beneficiaries of the amnesty went on to achieve great things? Or better yet how about how many other great inventions will we sacrifice by not passing the dream act? Do you remember the case of the undocumented high school students from AZ who went on to win the national championship with the robots they invented? I wonder what happened to those kids.