FOOL'S GOLD

That's how conservative scholar Tamar Jacoby describes Republican hopes that playing the anti-immigration card will boost their electoral prospects in November. Jacoby is quoted in an excellent analytical piece in today's New York Times on how the issue of immigration could affect the Hispanic vote next year.

Comments

""The US does have a special relationship with Mexico since we are neighbors and we are in the same hemisphere...""

For any US immigration policy to be successful MEXICO should be part of the solution.

"The US does have a special relationship with Mexico since we are neighbors and we are in the same hemisphere..."

Yes, Mexico is "special".

"much unauthorized immigration comes from Mexico and Latin America. The US doesn't have to treat each country equally. They can if they want to but its certainly not mandatory."

You hit the nail on the head. Mexico is so special it should be handled differently. I believe a nice good double layered fence with a minefield in between will seal the southern border effectively. The northern border does not need to be sealed at this time since only Mexico is "special".

[Dream Act guy]

indianGuy, you shouldn't be talking about "equal treatment" because you are a hypocrite on this issue.

If you've already forgotten, you're the one who wants to prevent more Indians from immigrating into the US. Of course, you, indianGuy, can move to the US, but your fellow countrymen should stay behind and help improve India (especially the rural areas).

[indianGuy]

"The US does have a special relationship with Mexico since we are neighbors and we are in the same hemisphere, not so for India or China. Plus, there's a special need because of much unauthorized immigration comes from Mexico and Latin America. The US doesn't have to treat each country equally. They can if they want to but its certainly not mandatory."

- US has nothing in common with Mexico. The reason public is so much against illegal immigration is in fact our desire to have as less as possible in common with Mexico.

And yes, whether you like it or not, you will get the same treatment as others.

[Real Funny one]

"HOW DA HELL DID YOU GET A VISA IS OUR STANDARD AT THE US THAT LOW!!!!MAN i KNOW OUR IMMIGRATION SYSTEM WAS BROKEN BUT YOU AR JUST THE WORST ABERRATION TO IT."

WHO SAID I NEED VISA, I WAS BORN HERE TO AN ILLEGAL ALIEN MOM AND TO AN "UNKNOWN" DAD. I AM A CITIZEN.

[Dream Act guy]

The US does have a special relationship with Mexico since we are neighbors and we are in the same hemisphere, not so for India or China. Plus, there's a special need because of much unauthorized immigration comes from Mexico and Latin America. The US doesn't have to treat each country equally. They can if they want to but its certainly not mandatory.

I am not Mexican by the way.

[Another voice]

"Otherwise any argument or fact that is not for more illegal immigration is factually incorrect."

No actually if you know how to read then you can see that that is not what I said. I said that what is wrong is what this no name guy says its factually wrong. But by your own statment you already showed your true colors. Therefore I am nott wasting my time or energy exchanging ideas with a close minded and stupid individual such as yourself. HOW DA HELL DID YOU GET A VISA IS OUR STANDARD AT THE US THAT LOW!!!!MAN i KNOW OUR IMMIGRATION SYSTEM WAS BROKEN BUT YOU AR JUST THE WORST ABERRATION TO IT.

[eZ Visa]

"That is because CIA pulls numbers from official employemnt data real jobs. The numbers I am talking about are from various economic organizations such as the World Bank where they see that people with no real employment are not statistically counted becuase they sell chickens on the street(technically not employeed) not a form of formal employment. Never the less I answer your whole arguments wich is flawed you only point out a small petty fact that I am answering right now. Does that mean that you have nothing else to say because you know your argument, logic is flawed. You tried to sound sure of yourself."

Otherwise any argument or fact that is not for more illegal immigration is factually incorrect.

[Another voice]

"This is factually wrong. The CIA world factbook states the poverty rate in Mexico is only around 17.6%. Which means out of 100 million, only about 17.6 million people would be living in poverty."

That is because CIA pulls numbers from official employemnt data real jobs. The numbers I am talking about are from various economic organizations such as the World Bank where they see that people with no real employment are not statistically counted becuase they sell chickens on the street(technically not employeed) not a form of formal employment. Never the less I answer your whole arguments wich is flawed you only point out a small petty fact that I am answering right now. Does that mean that you have nothing else to say because you know your argument, logic is flawed. You tried to sound sure of yourself.

"THEY DO NOT GIVE LOW SKILL WORKERS VISAS AS THEY DO WITH THE CHINESE, INDIANS AND OTHER COUNTRIES"

Instead of whining why dont these guys acquire the skills that lets them emmigrate legally.

[e]

"You show me where I said that they did!!!!"

Re read your own statement.. :)

""THEY DO NOT GIVE LOW SKILL WORKERS VISAS AS THEY DO WITH THE CHINESE, INDIANS AND OTHER COUNTRIES.""

AV you inferred with the above statement that Indian and chinese workers get low skilled work visas and mexicans dont get them.

[Another voice]

"Show us where they give low skill workers visas if they are Chinese, Indians or from other countries."

You show me where I said that they did!!!!

[!A]

"THEY DO NOT GIVE LOW SKILL WORKERS VISAS AS THEY DO WITH THE CHINESE, INDIANS AND OTHER COUNTRIES."

Show us where they give low skill workers visas if they are Chinese, Indians or from other countries.

"Out of the 100 million mexicans 40 million live under the poverty line and half of those live in extreme poverty. This data by the same people you are talking about."

This is factually wrong. The CIA world factbook states the poverty rate in Mexico is only around 17.6%. Which means out of 100 million, only about 17.6 million people would be living in poverty.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mx.html

[Another voice]

"- Anybody with even an iota of respect for the law would agree"

Anybody who understand that in order to solve the problem you must act practically and intelligently rather than blindly defend something that obviously does not work and has not worked for the past 20 years. Laws change all the time and are adapted to the new realities.

"The per-capita-income in Mexico is about 10 thousand dollars according to purchasing power parity."
Out of the 100 million mexicans 40 million live under the poverty line and half of those live in extreme poverty. This data by the same people you are talking about.
"The per capita income in India is about 3 thousand dollars. Compared to India, China"
Rich people, new companies are growing by the thousands in these 2 countries and their economies are growing in double digits every year compared to a 3-4% in the US and Europe. Not sure what economic data you are looking at is probably the minute man data.
"Mexico is a downright affluent country. I have been to Mexico and I have seen it firsthand."
Mexican economy is tied to the US econom,y if we go into a resecion so will they and guess what more immigration to the US because it hits them harder down there and creats more poverty. You are not the only one that has traveled to that country or around the world. They only thing they would have going for them is tourism and Oil along with the money sent by Immigrants from the US.
"The real reason all these people advocate citizenship of illegals is that they want to flood America with 'their people' i.e., hispanics."
That is right out of the (KKK, Tancredo, Lou Dobbs) play book but I dare you to show me evidence of this stupidity.
"They just want to legalize hispanics already here instead of making them go back and compete for visas"
You do not get it do you let me try again THEY DO NOT GIVE LOW SKILL WORKERS VISAS AS THEY DO WITH THE CHINESE, INDIANS AND OTHER COUNTRIES. IF YOU ARE POOR MEXICAN AND DO NOT HAVE $100 FOR THE APLICATION AND CAN NOT SHOW PROOF OF INCOME NO VISA. GUES WHAT THEY ARE POOR THEY DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING.
"China and India would like to come here on those visas to even clean toilets."
Most Immigrant5s from these 2 countries come either as H!B visas or student visas which means ( High skilled workers)you are comparing apples to oranges. Chinese immigrants that come illegally come on the cargo boats off the west coast have you been to the west coast.
"The hispanic lobby does not want that competition."
With a 4.7% uneplyment rate there is jobs for plenty of people in the US and with baby boomers retiring soon there will be even more jobs available in the US.

[Another voice]

"The last post was mine. forgot to put my name."

Then its obvious that is a waste of time to try to have an inntelligent exchange of ideas with you. Hopefully you won't think that when they say the same thing about Indian Immigrants.

"The fence will acomplish nothing but increase the ladder sales in Mexico and coyote fees(human traffickers) and waste a lot of tax payers money."

This gets repeated a lot. To me this just says that the fence needs to be supplemented by something else. There must be enough artillery lying around from WWII and the cold war to fully militarize the border. Of course it may be cheaper and less disruptive to mine the border as we haven't signed the Mine Ban Treaty.

[indianGuy]

The last post was mine. forgot to put my name.

"Somehow it seems like you want to hold yourself up high in a pedestal because you came here Legally and should be commended for it."

- Anybody with even an iota of respect for the law would agree.

"There is no choice for these immigrants to come here legally, no way for low skilled labor to do it. They are doing what the Irish, Italians, Polish and many other did before coime hre to feed their families and worry about the papers later because the other choice is to starve in their native countries.
"

- The per-capita-income in Mexico is about 10 thousand dollars according to purchasing power parity. The per capita income in India is about 3 thousand dollars. Compared to India, China and African nations, Mexico is a downright affluent country. I have been to Mexico and I have seen it firsthand. The real reason all these people advocate citizenship of illegals is that they want to flood America with 'their people' i.e., hispanics. They just want to legalize hispanics already here instead of making them go back and compete for visas to come here because lots of people from China and India would like to come here on those visas to even clean toilets. The hispanic lobby does not want that competition.

[Another voice]

"The current position is unacceptable."
Everyone is in agreement with you on this one.
"The border should be fenced immediately and tough punishments should be given to employers of illegals."
The fence will acomplish nothing but increase the ladder sales in Mexico and coyote fees(human traffickers) and waste a lot of tax payers money. Economic impact for business will not be a good idea either.

4.6% uneployment rate there is nobody to replace the workers with
Slowdown in the US economy and current fears of resecion would only spell trouble for companies.
Loss of jobs as many business will be force to shutdown
All of that compunded with the current housing crisis not good at all.

"Once all this is done, a guest worker program will be formed."
These have been rejected by Law makers from both parties time after time again, look at the Bill gates example and California farmers they are just taking the jobs elsewhere rather than hope for this one.
"The number of guest worker visas will be determined by employer needs."
There are 12 million undocumented workers some of them work up to 3 jobs at the same time. Uneployment at 4.7% 75% of the agricultural industries, 40% construction industry, 60% hospitality jobs for starters.
"All the illegals will have to temporarily leave the country and apply for guest worker visas along with their families."
This will never happen people will not self deport with an empty promise that they will be allowed back in they will just stay in the shadows.
"There should be a clear path to citizenship for these guest workers."
All in greement but the antis call is amnesty and do not care to do it.
"However, the present association of illegals with legals is causing major problems for us by turning a large portion of the public unsympathetic to our causes."
Somehow it seems like you want to hold yourself up high in a pedestal because you came here Legally and should be commended for it. De-humanizing other immigrants to make you ough to be the good guy here is riddiculous. There is no choice for these immigrants to come here legally, no way for low skilled labor to do it. They are doing what the Irish, Italians, Polish and many other did before coime hre to feed their families and worry about the papers later because the other choice is to starve in their native countries.

[Greg Siskind]

IndianGuy - If you think the corporate lobby has this problem in the bag, you've not been paying attention. Bill Gates - arguably the most powerful business executive on the planet - has been to Capitol Hill five times to work on employment immigration issues. If he has come away empty handed each time, that should be a wake up call. THe pro-immigration community has no hope if we are not united and if we do not support each other.

Enjoy your decades of waiting...

[indianGuy]

You are trying to put words in my mouth. Let me restate my position very clearly.

The current position is unacceptable. The border should be fenced immediately and tough punishments should be given to employers of illegals. Once all this is done, a guest worker program will be formed. The number of guest worker visas will be determined by employer needs. All the illegals will have to temporarily leave the country and apply for guest worker visas along with their families. There should be a clear path to citizenship for these guest workers.

As for anti-immigrants laughing at me, I don't care. I personally have cleared all immigration stages. These racist anti-(legal immigrants) have no money behind them. We, along with our massive corporate lobby, do. These anti-(legal immigrants) are also a very small part of the population. They will be dealt with when the time comes. However, the present association of illegals with legals is causing major problems for us by turning a large portion of the public unsympathetic to our causes.

[Greg Siskind]

>>That's all I needed to know.<< Don't let an actual reading of the article get in your way. Most Americans also believe that immigrants overall help the country and favor a path to legalization. They don't like the fact that the immigrants are illegal and that having 12 million people here illegally is not healthy. But most don't have a problem with them staying.

As for your second silly point that Republicans didn't pay a price, where do you think the 14% drop in Hispanic votes went? Into the ether? Sadly, you seem to think that if you throw the unauthorized immigrants to the wolves, he won't be hungry anymore and you'll get a faster path to a green card. But the same folks jamming the switchboards to oppose legalization measures, also do the same things on legal immigration bills. Your fate is tied to that of the unauthorized workers and the sooner you accept that, the sooner you can actually effect change to solve the problems of the legal immigrants as well.

The antis are laughing at you right now.

[indianGuy]

From the article,

"An ABC News poll conducted in September found that 54 percent of Americans believed that illegal immigrants do more to hurt the country than help; 34 percent said they do more to help; 6 percent said they neither help nor hurt; 7 percent were unsure."

That's all I needed to know. Thanks. Nice try making us believe that the republicans lost in 2006 because of their opposition to illegals. They lost because of mismanagement of war in Iraq, Katrina, scandals.

Also, please don't equate legal immigrants with illegals. I have been noticing that this is a recent concerted effort by the hispanic lobby to blurr the differences so that they can take advantage of public's sympathetic views of legal immigrants.