NEW POLL SHOWS AMERICANS BELIEVE BORDER SECURITY REQUIRES GUEST WORKER REFORM

Despite calls for an enforcement only approach by many anti-immigrant voices in the US, the American public has consistently taken a more pragmatic view. A new poll commissioned by the Krieble Foundation and conducted by Public Opinion Strategies surveyed 800 people and has a plus or minus error rate of 3.5%. The Krieble Foundation press release on the poll notes

Voters overwhelmingly agreed with the statement: "It is not possible to have absolute border control without a better system for handling temporary workers." A total of 76 percent agree with the statement, while only 17 percent disagree.

Similarly, when asked which would do more to strengthen our border, 53 percent said "creating a more efficient system for handling temporary workers" while only 36 percent said "increasing the presence of law enforcement officials."

"The bottom line," said Foundation President Helen E. Krieble, "is that people who call for border-only approaches to this national crisis represent a very small minority. Most people know that real border security requires a work program to efficiently handle our economy's labor requirements."

Comments

"legal-forever-waiting-forever, yes, but if the system was working right, EB immigrants would not spend a lot of years in the country waiting for their green card, thus many of them would become LPRs 1-3 years after coming. What you proposing (or, what I think you are proposing) is a solution that is based on the assumption that the system would get stuck badly at some point."

L&W the system is not working , just take a look at VISA bulletins whether EB or FB

"i have been in this country over a dozen years
english is my natural language
my adult life has been largely in america
am i assimilated yet?
when i get my green card some 6 more years from now, i will have more than 18 years here. why does my character need another 5 year check?

let's be rational. many of us- EB immigrants- have spent much time in america. we are as assimilated as anyone else. we own homes, have kids here, have stable jobs and have paid our dues over time in enormous taxes and ss contributions and in jobs and positions that americans did not necessarily want . do we deserve consideration? or are we just "foreign forever"?
"

Do you have an accent? If yes then you are not assimilated enough ..:)

Do you wear your pants in certain way so that it shows your under garments , If yes then you are assimilated enough :)

Do you know enough about pop culture , If yes then you are assimilated enough :)

[Legal and waiting]

legal-forever-waiting-forever, yes, but if the system was working right, EB immigrants would not spend a lot of years in the country waiting for their green card, thus many of them would become LPRs 1-3 years after coming. What you proposing (or, what I think you are proposing) is a solution that is based on the assumption that the system would get stuck badly at some point.

[legal-forever-waiting-forever]

i have been in this country over a dozen years
english is my natural language
my adult life has been largely in america
am i assimilated yet?
when i get my green card some 6 more years from now, i will have more than 18 years here. why does my character need another 5 year check?

let's be rational. many of us- EB immigrants- have spent much time in america. we are as assimilated as anyone else. we own homes, have kids here, have stable jobs and have paid our dues over time in enormous taxes and ss contributions and in jobs and positions that americans did not necessarily want . do we deserve consideration? or are we just "foreign forever"?

[b]

"No, thats not an option because we are americans and we consider ourselves to be americans ."

Ummm, yeah. Can others who have been in the country, assimilated, and consider themselves American use that?

[A]

"When it comes to immigration, there are groups in need of special relief. "

Yes, Relief should not be confused with reward.

"If they don't succeed they can go back to their country of origin."

No, thats not an option because we are americans and we consider ourselves to be americans .

[Dream Act guy]

A, I'm Asian too.

[Dream Act guy]

b, furthermore, treating compassionate cases individually is the same as doing nothing because private bills rarely get passed. How about those widows who cannot gain legal status in the US because the person sponsoring them died also known as the "widow penalty?" Don't they deserve relief too and if so, why not just pass a law correcting a specific population's status due to their similar circumstances?

When it comes to immigration, there are groups in need of special relief.

[A]

"There is a difference with Asians though because Asians are considered to be "forever foreign" by the larger population"

Yeah whatever , because most of them speak english instead of some other language(------),

[A]

"Senators argue that DREAM kids should get a shot at jobs instead of importing H1Bs. DAG argues DREAM kids can't fit into EB. What is true here?"

Exactly Change the H1B laws so that these dream act kids are given priority over "foreign workers".

One more arguments proponents use is these kids can not goto college , If attending college is the issue then these kids can be give dream act visas and EADs so that they can goto college and work and work towards immigration. If country based quotas are needed for diversity in legal immigration then they need to be enforced rigorously in any legalization program.

[Dream Act guy]

b, the reason Dream Act kids can't fit into the EB line now is because most are minors and most did not graduate college.

But your proposal sounds like Sen. Hutchison's proposal. During the Dream debate, Sen. Hutchison proposed a compromise where Dream kids would get a special F visa with 5 year renewable work visas (to be able to pay off college expenses). Sen. Durbin was willing to work with Hutchison on this compromise. However, the Senate could not begin debate on the Dream Act because it could not get the 60 votes needed for cloture.

[b]

DREAM act arguments don't seem coherent. I can understand the compassionate argument.

Senators argue that DREAM kids should get a shot at jobs instead of importing H1Bs. DAG argues DREAM kids can't fit into EB. What is true here?

Give the DREAM kids F1 visa to go to college, with in-state tuition. If they complete college and get a degree, allow them uncapped H1B and let them compete for jobs as all adults do. They are on a level playing field now.

They can try to get a GC like the rest of from then. If they don't succeed they can go back to their country of origin. That's what I will have to do if GC rejected. I have been in this country for more than half my life.

If after given a chance to go to school and work on H1B (or other visa), the DREAM kids are not able to compete as an adult (by the time they finish college) and get a GC, then they don't deserve a handout.

If the argument is compassionate, it should be applicable to all immigrants legal or illegal based on the individual case.

[Dream Act guy]

Edit: Oops, I meant 15 or younger

[Dream Act guy]

Assimilation isn't the criteria though. Its there as an underlying reason for the Dream Act because an entire generation of people grew up in the US and consider ourselves to be American but without papers. The actual criteria for the Dream Act is the lower age limit; a child aged 15 or older who entered the US in an unauthorized fashion who had no choice in the manner of coming into the US.

As an aside, American Identity scholars do think that full assimilation doesn't happen until the third generation of immigrants. There is a difference with Asians though because Asians are considered to be "forever foreign" by the larger population. Its a fascinating subject.

[A]

"The reasoning why conditional residency applies for naturalization is because most Dream Act kids have lived here most of our lives and consider ourselves to be assimilated into American society"

How do you measure assimilation? If assimilation is the criteria shouldn't it be applied across the board for all immigrants? I consider myself to be assimilated because my friends call me americanized for so many reasons.

[Dream Act guy]

Your main complaints seems to be the conditional residency status and the time it takes for citizenship.

The reasoning why conditional residency applies for naturalization is because most Dream Act kids have lived here most of our lives and consider ourselves to be assimilated into American society. But moving from 6 year conditional residency to a 5 year permanent residence status and then to citizenship wouldn't be a bad compromise. Obviously, it is up to the legislators to make the change.

As for the "back of the line," that would imply Dream Act kids were involved in some sort of wrongdoing. An entire generation became casualties of the broken immigration system, and people, especially children who had no choice in coming to the US, should not be punished for the actions of their parents. Again, only 5-10% of Dream Act kids go onto college and it would be unwise for young people to continue being denied a chance to succeed in life.

Also, putting Dream Act kids into the FB line (can't do it in the EB line because of employer issues, most Dream Act beneficiaries are either minors or not college educated) is unnecessary. Giving relief for Dream Act beneficiaries would require a separate category and line because Dream Act kids do not fit in any of the FB categories.

[A]

"A, thats not true. Dream Act kids can sponsor their parents only when Dream Act beneficiaries become citizens. "

Exactly dude , Dream act kids become citizens in record time because the proposed legislation counts the time in conditional residency towards time required for naturalization. That is special treatment ...These "KIDS" SHOULD GOTO BACK OF THE IMMIGRATION QUEUE , BEHIND EB AND FB.

[Dream Act guy]

A, thats not true. Dream Act kids can sponsor their parents only when Dream Act beneficiaries become citizens. Also, parent sponsorship won't even be an issue. The vast majority of parents can't get these family visas because they would have to leave the country to obtain it (and face a ten year ban.)

During the Save America CIR House hearings that Greg intended, Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee wanted to fix this aspect of immigration law because many undocumented immigrants have no way of getting their family visas already in the docket because of the 10 year ban. Fixing this part of the law would reduce the undocumented population and get more people out of the shadows.

Britney, it is often said that politics is the art of the possible. Many legislators concluded that the situation of Dream Act kids deserve special relief. Indeed, 55 Senators are in support of the Dream Act, the same amount of Senators who support the EB recapture amendment. Furthermore, Senators like Specter said they support the Dream Act but he wants it in a CIR bill. McCain said he also supports the bill, but he wants "border security first" before any reforms to the immigration system.

In a better political environment, the Dream Act would have passed and opened the door for further movement on piecemeal immigration reform. Now, all other pieces of immigration reform are in gridlock and in danger of being torpedoed as well.

[Britney]

One of the arguments Dream act proponents make is "why kids should suffer for the actions of parents" , In real world kids do suffer because of their parents actions I can give many examples.

[A]

"Sid and A, its great that you support a path to legalization! Now, I just need to convince both of you to support the Dream Act.

To address Sid's concerns:

- No one is advocating for open borders, only an efficient immigration system. Please don't listen to the antis on this regard.

- The college and/or military component is there to avoid the amnesty label. The Department of Defense, for instance, supported the measure because it gives them more recruits to relieve the troop recruitment shortage.

- The Age Out Act was in Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee's Save America Comprehensive Immigration Act. It could be conceivable that this Act can be incorporated into the Dream Act to provide relief for people who aged out. It is also conceivable that the Age Out Act will be in the next version of CIR along with DREAM.

- The age limit was installed because of complaints by antis that it was too broad. Because of the antis this year, the age limit was put into place, and supporters made the decision to place the cut off at 30 years old. In the next version of DREAM, it may revert back to its original form without the age limit. There is still a lower age limit of 15 years old or younger upon entering the US to be eligible for the Dream Act. Juan Gomez, for instance, entered the US when he was a toddler.

- The Dream Act was created because there was a need to provide relief for people who were brought in as children in an unauthorized fashion. Dream Act beneficiaries had no say in coming to the US and should not be punished for the actions of their parents. Right now, Dream Act kids cannot leave the US because a ten year ban would be levied for those that do. Dream Act kids are in a catch-22 where we have no way to adjust our status in a situation not of our own making.

But for those lucky enough to have 245(i) or get married to a citizen, a Dream Act kid (and undocumented immigrants in general) could adjust status that way.

"

There are some people who are waiting since 80s for their turn in the queue. I am not talking about the EB queue. Why you think these kids should be given a shortcut? Why cant these kids goto back of the immigration line? Why you think conditional residency time should be counted towards the time needed for naturlization. I personally think its a slap in face of many legal immigrants unless every legal immigrant is given same privilege. These "kids" can sponser their family members within no time where as legal immigrants have to wait more than 15 years in some cases.

[Dream Act guy]

b, yes, I think Sid was referring to 30 year olds who will be given conditional status due to the Dream Act. I would say that the vast majority of Dream Act kids did not get a chance to go to college and do not have the advantages that a college education would bring. According to the Immigration Policy Center, only 5-10% of undocumented students go on to college.

http://www.ilw.com/articles/2007,1121-gonzales.shtm

A great deal of empathy and mercy would be required for people in our situation. Whether you like me or not, many Dream Act kids just want a chance to succeed in a life that is anything but kind.

[Sid]

"- No one is advocating for open borders, only an efficient immigration system. Please don't listen to the antis on this regard."

Actually it's not the antis - it's your pro-pals AV and L&W. They've argued that no amount of border security will stop illegal immigration unless everyone is allowed to come and go as they please.

[b]

DAG, got to address the unfairness in what you propose to convince Sid and A

[Dream Act guy]

Sid and A, its great that you support a path to legalization! Now, I just need to convince both of you to support the Dream Act.

To address Sid's concerns:

- No one is advocating for open borders, only an efficient immigration system. Please don't listen to the antis on this regard.

- The college and/or military component is there to avoid the amnesty label. The Department of Defense, for instance, supported the measure because it gives them more recruits to relieve the troop recruitment shortage.

- The Age Out Act was in Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee's Save America Comprehensive Immigration Act. It could be conceivable that this Act can be incorporated into the Dream Act to provide relief for people who aged out. It is also conceivable that the Age Out Act will be in the next version of CIR along with DREAM.

- The age limit was installed because of complaints by antis that it was too broad. Because of the antis this year, the age limit was put into place, and supporters made the decision to place the cut off at 30 years old. In the next version of DREAM, it may revert back to its original form without the age limit. There is still a lower age limit of 15 years old or younger upon entering the US to be eligible for the Dream Act. Juan Gomez, for instance, entered the US when he was a toddler.

- The Dream Act was created because there was a need to provide relief for people who were brought in as children in an unauthorized fashion. Dream Act beneficiaries had no say in coming to the US and should not be punished for the actions of their parents. Right now, Dream Act kids cannot leave the US because a ten year ban would be levied for those that do. Dream Act kids are in a catch-22 where we have no way to adjust our status in a situation not of our own making.

But for those lucky enough to have 245(i) or get married to a citizen, a Dream Act kid (and undocumented immigrants in general) could adjust status that way.

[A]

"So, what am I - a pro or an anti?"

I think you are an anti and could be a racist too ...:)

[Sid]

"You are right that groups do have their own pet projects and would want to see it pass in the absence of CIR. But all these groups do have an interest in passing CIR, and they do not have malicious intent towards either legal or undocumented immigrants. That makes these groups pro-immigrant."

The only reason any of these groups are interested in a CIR bill is because they can trade votes with other groups. You won't find an official statement from any of these groups saying that they also support the other reforms. So, in effect, we don't really know what their stand is on the other issues.

Let's see how you pigeonhole me.

I obviously support EB reforms.

I support the legalization of undocumented workers because of two reasons - i believe in family unification, so if the constitution allows citizenship by birth, there should be a way for the parents of a U.S. citizen to live here legally. The other reason is economic. I don't want the cost of low-end services to skyrocket. I don't have any special sympathy for illegal immigrants on account of them being poor - there are poorer people in Africa and Asia.

I oppose open borders and believe in securing the borders. Having an open borders policy is based on trust, which has been violated too many times in the past.

I oppose the Dream Act for many reasons.
- I don't think it is necessary to join the military or go to college to become an American. If it is, it should be made mandatory for all Americans first.
- If the aim was to provide some relief to kids who are about to go to college or have started attending college but cannot apply for in-state tuition or financial aid, it would have been more acceptable. Giving conditional GCs to 30 year olds when legal immigrants around that age who've also lived here for 7-12 years and are waiting in line, is grossly unfair.
- The last amnesty was in '86. If a kid who was under 16 when he/she entered the country illegally and had just missed the '86 amnesty boat, he/she could potentially be around 35-37 now. So, the cutoff of 30 doesn't apply to those folks either.

So, what am I - a pro or an anti?

[b]

DAG, I ask for one selfless act and you call it hateful. You call everyone not willing to sacrifice for you selfish. Hypocrite.

[A]

"Two words - "Senator Durbin"

Could not agree more .

"A, you called yourself selfish on this thread. Feel free to retract that comment. "

I am not sure why these people such as AV and DAG resort to name calling all the time and keep lecturing on fighting towards the cause of legalization of illegals at the cost of everything else :)

"I do think that being both a potential Dream Act beneficiary and an EB immigrant makes me a good ambassador for both groups. "

I am not sure how this can be true ... Shouldn't a person be illegal (I mean deportable)to be eligible for dream act? I am not sure if legals are eligible for dream act benifits ....

[Dream Act guy]

b, I will disregard your hateful comments.

[Dream Act guy]

Sid, I apologize; in your comment, I thought "Compete America" was "Corporate America."

[b]

DAG as an ambassador. Yeah right. You are most selfish. As an illegal making the country anti-immigrant, and taking a spot in EB line. If you want to be ambassador, go out of the country and apply for GC at US consulate. You will perform a selfless act, and act as ambassador highlighting the immigration issues

[Dream Act guy]

Sid, you forget that agribusiness wants to pass Agjobs. Also, many companies want to legalize the undocumented so they can meet their labor demand legitimately.

You are right that groups do have their own pet projects and would want to see it pass in the absence of CIR. But all these groups do have an interest in passing CIR, and they do not have malicious intent towards either legal or undocumented immigrants. That makes these groups pro-immigrant.

[Sid]

"Sid, I was talking about the groups advocating for immigration reform not about individual legislators."

Then you're even further from the truth. Compete America, for example, doesn't lobby for legalization of illegal immigrants.
La Raza doesn't lobby for Indian and Chinese EB immigrants stuck in the backlog. I'm not talking about the actual lobbyists here. They are simply paid to do a job.

"If you don't want to believe me that there's only one pro-immigration lobby, go ask Greg. He'll tell you the same thing."

Greg is an immigration lawyer. He doesn't benefit from dividing immigrants into legal and illegals. He himself may be pro-immigration but if he says that all the parties involved are rooting for comprehensive reform instead of lobbying for their own interests, he would be incorrect.

[Dream Act guy]

Sid, I was talking about the groups advocating for immigration reform not about individual legislators. If you don't want to believe me that there's only one pro-immigration lobby, go ask Greg. He'll tell you the same thing.

[Sid]

"Some people here like their caricatures and believe there's a "pro-legal" and "pro-illegal" lobby when there's really only the pro-immigration lobby."

Two words - "Senator Durbin"

[Dream Act guy]

A, you called yourself selfish on this thread. Feel free to retract that comment.

Also, your preceding comment didn't make sense. What would I want "way more than" what EB people and unauthorized immigrants would want?

I do think that being both a potential Dream Act beneficiary and an EB immigrant makes me a good ambassador for both groups. Some people here like their caricatures and believe there's a "pro-legal" and "pro-illegal" lobby when there's really only the pro-immigration lobby. For those people, stop being so tribal and start looking out for all immigrants because we are all in the same boat.

[A]

"For example, DAG will call you selfish but he is not willing to selflessly remove himself from the EB queue so that the wait becomes shorter for someone else. He will have his feet firmly planted on both the EB and Dream boats till he gets his GC.
"

DAG I think you are more selfish than I am because you want way more than what EB guys or illegal immigrants would be satisfied with :) and you call me selfish ..hehe

[A]

"A, it's not worth arguing about fairness here. You'll be better off investing your time on something else. Most people on this blog have vested interests in one immigration reform or the other, have very fixed views on these issues and will go to any length to justify their stand. For example, DAG will call you selfish but he is not willing to selflessly remove himself from the EB queue so that the wait becomes shorter for someone else. He will have his feet firmly planted on both the EB and Dream boats till he gets his GC.

It's not enough to support legalization, you also have to support an open border policy with Mexico, otherwise, you'll be labeled an "anti" by AV."

Exactly....According to these guys , People who are waiting in Mexico for past 20 years for their turn are fools. They should have jumped the border too...

[indian]

yeah too much name calling here instead of mature discussions.

[Sid]

A, it's not worth arguing about fairness here. You'll be better off investing your time on something else. Most people on this blog have vested interests in one immigration reform or the other, have very fixed views on these issues and will go to any length to justify their stand. For example, DAG will call you selfish but he is not willing to selflessly remove himself from the EB queue so that the wait becomes shorter for someone else. He will have his feet firmly planted on both the EB and Dream boats till he gets his GC.

It's not enough to support legalization, you also have to support an open border policy with Mexico, otherwise, you'll be labeled an "anti" by AV.

[A]

"A, I don't want to lecture you, but there's a difference between being selfish and being self-interested. "

Can you please elaborate.. Not really sure about the nuanced difference.

As I said I am not against legalization of undocumented people. If that legalization is unfair to me I will oppose it.

[Dream Act guy]

A, I don't want to lecture you, but there's a difference between being selfish and being self-interested.

[A]

"You should try being more selfless. Karma has a way of rewarding people, but instead, you're stuck. "

Well I am a selfish person. I speak for my interests. Well let me be clear on one thing, I am not opposed to legalization. My view is that all the legalized people should go to back of the line. I will oppose any special treatment anywhere when it comes to citizenship/PR queue.

[Dream Act guy]

A, me thinks the lady doth protest too much.

You should try being more selfless. Karma has a way of rewarding people, but instead, you're stuck.

[HEHE]

"A, Have fun waiting. Due to the status quo and the long waiting lines, I'll probably get my green card before you will. "

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hFJoknFc_3CKaUwmY5g9nPbaPFfwD8T0D90G0

[A]

"A, Have fun waiting. Due to the status quo and the long waiting lines, I'll probably get my green card before you will. "

Good luck with that. You may get yours earlier than mine that means you have some legal protection somewhere other than dream act amnesty. Its not about individuals but its about opposing mass amnsety for some special interest groups such as "dream act kids". Good luck with your green card journey :)

[A]

"A, Have fun waiting. Due to the status quo and the long waiting lines, I'll probably get my green card before you will. "
You might as well get it, there are so many ways one can get green card .. Who cares if you get it .. You might have many options like marrying to a citizen or some other protection who knows ... You want dream act amnesty instead of 245 i amnesty because it gives you instant green card. I could care less ... Its not fun waiting but at least things will not worse than they are....

[Dream Act guy]

A, Have fun waiting. Due to the status quo and the long waiting lines, I'll probably get my green card before you will.

[A]

"A, the filibuster led to the defeat of Cornyn's EB recapture amendment. Like the Dream Act, it had 55 Senators in support of the measure. "

Exactly we know who our enemies are in this case. It was defeated by partyline voting led by Mr. Durbin and illegals keep saying Durbin is pro immigrant. He is pro illegal immigration and anti legal immigration.

Sen. Cornyns amendment would have made things better for me but if Mr. Durbin has his way with immigration bills it would make life a nightmare for many employment based legal immigrants and their employers.

All in all status quo is better for EB folks rather than proposed solutions by Mr. Durbin and Grassley. This crazy senator wants to reward illegals with instant green cards and punish legal folks who are waiting in line. At the most what he can do is delay the releif for legal folks, Anyway I am used to that he cant make things worse for me if the status quo continues.

Illegals love Durbin because he wants handover instant green cards whatever his reasons and justifications are for such proposal.

I dont speak for EB community as a whole but I would do whatever it takes from my side to deny Mr. Durbin a legislative victory that rewards his beloved illegals.

[Another voice]

"I think this person AV good at passing judgemental comments about others , now he declared me as stubborn and shortsighted."

Don't take it personal but based on you comments it shows. But let's focus on the issue here rather that in personal attacks.

[Dream Act guy]

A, the filibuster led to the defeat of Cornyn's EB recapture amendment. Like the Dream Act, it had 55 Senators in support of the measure.

[Democrat]

"This is not a solution this just shows that you are stubborn and shortsided on the whole issue. Read and reason the other posts rather that just blindly defend you belief."

I think this person AV good at passing judgemental comments about others , now he declared me as stubborn and shortsighted.

[Greg Siskind]

>>Senator Durbin and Senator Kennedy speak for the people who can not speak for themselves<<

Senator Kennedy is, of course, one of the biggest advocates in the Senator for a guest worker program.

[Another voice]

"Solution to end illegal immigration is not massive importation of foreign workers , solution to end illegal immigration is best achieved if mandatory minimum sentences are legislated for employers who violate the immigration laws knowingly."

This is not a solution this just shows that you are stubborn and shortsided on the whole issue. Read and reason the other posts rather that just blindly defend you belief.

[Greg Siskind]

>>First, if you're using the 12 million figure as the total number of illegal aliens, you are acting as if they all work. That's not true. Which is why 'undocumented worker' as a euphemism for 'illegal alien' is not accurate.<<

OK Jack - You pick the number. Some of the antis are saying 20,000,000. I think my point is the same. As for the economic calamity issue, when you have entire industries that are comprised of 25% or more of unauthorized workers and you have 4% unemployment in the US, I don't think you need a Ph.D. to see the problem. There are plenty of studies out there showing the need (I've posted many on this blog) and there is also empirical evidence of how enforcement is impacting industries today such as farming and construction (were it not for the crisis in mortgage lending and the slump in real estate this would be even worse). When you're looking to change the status quo and dramatically reduce the number of workers in the US, I'd say the onus should be on you to prove it won't be harmful and not vice versa. Those advocating change have the primary obligation to prove their case. I'm only advocating changing the system to ensure that workers have a legal status and not actually changing the size of the work force. Find me studies that show that the US can sustain a seven figure drop in the number of workers with 4% national unemployment.

[Democrat]

"That is the favorite line of Senator Durbin and Senator Dorgan to excuse their help in derailing CIR"

You can accuse them of anything you want, but they are the greatest protections american worker has in the senate. Senator Durbin and Senator Kennedy speak for the people who can not speak for themselves whether it is american middle class worker or illegal undocumented worker. Solution to end illegal immigration is not massive importation of foreign workers , solution to end illegal immigration is best achieved if mandatory minimum sentences are legislated for employers who violate the immigration laws knowingly.

[A]

"Yes, but in doing so he killed it by attracting enough amendments to prevent cloture."

Exactly one of them was sunset prosion for guest worker programs. Sen Dorgan was not satisfied until his amendment was passed, he amendment was voted twice. Remember this was one of the poison pill amendments.

DAG
You may like Sen. Durbin, rightly so but he and other union leaders in senate are the biggest obstacles to increased legal job based immigration. Thank God for the fillibuster in the senate otherwise this senator would be totally out of control.

"Senator Durbin voted for CIR."

Yes, but in doing so he killed it by attracting enough amendments to prevent cloture.

[Dream Act guy]

Senator Durbin voted for CIR.

[Another voice]

Excellent article Greg just posted here is some reserch on the wages issue:

"1% increase in the share of foreign-born increased the average native wages by around 0.3-0.4%, and the average house prices (and rents) by 1%. These positive average effects, however, are accompanied by distributional effects. Analyzing the impact by education group we find that native workers with no high school diploma experienced a small reduction in wages and small increase in their rents as a consequence of immigration, while those with college education experienced a significant wage and rent increase. Our explanation of the positive wage effects rely on an important mechanism that seems to be operating in cities as well as in the US economy as a whole, and is based on the fact that the skill composition of immigrants is complementary to that of natives. Foreign-born individuals in the US are over-represented among workers with low skills (no degree) and among those with very high skills (graduate degrees particularly in science and technology). On the other hand, foreign-born are under-represented among workers with high-school and some college education. Most American workers, therefore (70% of which have high school or some college education), do not compete with immigrants for similar jobs but benefit from their complementary productive tasks. Moreover, even at similar levels of education native and immigrant workers tend to specialize in different occupations."

[Another voice]

"I am opposed any guest worker programs because these guest workers supress the wages for americans."

That is the favorite line of Senator Durbin and Senator Dorgan to excuse their help in derailing CIR. The truth is that undocumented workers mostly do jobs that americans do not want to do and if it does affect wages at some level it has been showed in multiple economic studies that it only affects 4-5% of american workers but at the end its a wash mostly low skill american workers. Most american workers have access to better jobs because they do not have a language barrier and mostly have higher education, no barriers of entry and skills therefore better jobs.

If legalization ever happens skill workers would help to have an orderly flow of immigrants workers so you don't have to do legalization every 20 years which we do not have today. Guest workers will be needed as the american population ages(baby boomers) and retire is happening all over the industrialized world.

[indian]

The posting of Democrat makes no sense. I suppose its a sign of intelligence to hold conflicting ideas in the head.

Democrat does not want guest workers because they suppress wage. Never mind the fact that US benefited in science and technology from immigrants, which positively impacted the economy. This is a well documented fact.

Democrat wants to legalize the undocumented. Now once that happens won't they compete with the citizens for the same jobs and depress wages. They don't have to do the jobs citizens won't.

So what do you want? Legalize the current undocumented, and then wait for the next batch to come illegally, then legalize those, and then wait ... I get the idea. Brilliant.

[USC]

"All these guest worker programs are nothing but corporate subsidies that boost the corporate profits"

That's factually inaccurate. Economics 101 holds that the importer of the commodity subject to a "QUOTA" is paying the subsidy and NOT receiving one.

For instance, up until a couple of years ago, cotton garments were subject to a per country quota. So, a shirt that the American consumer bought at Macy's cost him more because Macy's couldn't import all their requirements and had to buy higher price goods from domestic manufacturers. So, the subsidy is paid by the American consumer if Macy's passes the higher prices to them or by the American shareholders of Macy's, Inc if they choose not to pass on the higher prices to the American consumer. The subsidy is received by the SPECIAL INTERESTS represented by the garment workers.

Similarly, H1b/EB immigrants are subject to a quota. Thus the subsidy is paid by American consumers/shareholders to the SPECIAL INTERESTS represented by the likes of PG. PG position hurts the American consumer and American competitiveness. They are unpatriotic looking out only for their narrow self interest!

PG and their ilk don't seem to realize the role of the USD in the global economy. Here is an article from yesterday's IHT which makes the same case that I did a few weeks ago.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/18/bloomberg/sxview.php

[Jack]

>>So the question is whether we choose to have these 12 million jobs filled by people in an illegal status or we choose to fill them through a regulated guest worker system<<

First, if you're using the 12 million figure as the total number of illegal aliens, you are acting as if they all work. That's not true. Which is why 'undocumented worker' as a euphemism for 'illegal alien' is not accurate.

Second, your list of (two) options is incomplete. We can also enforce law prohibiting the hiring of illegal aliens. Something stronger than IRCA would be needed. You say it would cause an economic calamity but there's no basis for that according to economic theory. The labor market is not static. Sure, if you yank masses of people out of a labor market overnight, it would cause disruption but that can be mitigated. Beyond that, the American economy can be strong with less population. To be honest, it could also be strong with a heck of a lot *more* people and we already get multitudes through legal immigration. Why can't these people do some of these jobs you want guest workers for? A lot of economic justifications for high immigration (often by special interests) are hogwash and thus shouldn't drive our immigration policy. The idea that a capitalist economy can only flourish if it has a growing population (due to domestic growth or immigration) is unfounded. The idea that a capitalist economy can only flourish with second class 'guest workers' is offensive and not something America should stoop to.

[!A]

"I am not talking about individuals, I am talking about massive importation of guest workers using various programs. All these guest worker programs are nothing but corporate subsidies that boost the corporate profits at the cost of hardworking americans."

Curious how this quote above nearly completely toes the CIS line on guestworker programs.

"Mexican immigration acts as a subsidy to businesses that employ unskilled workers, holding down labor costs"

"Guestworker programs are unlikely to solve the problems found in the study. By increasing the supply of unskilled labor, a guestworker program would still adversely effect the wages of the lowest-paid American workers."

http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/mexico/release.html

[Greg Siskind]

>>I am not talking about individuals, I am talking about massive importation of guest workers using various programs. All these guest worker programs are nothing but corporate subsidies that boost the corporate profits at the cost of hardworking americans.<<

With all due respect, that's a load of bunk. Your previous email saying you supported illegal immigration because they don't take jobs from Americans while a guest worker program does simply shows ignorance about what guest worker programs actually do. The only reason unauthorized immigrants are unauthorized is because we don't actually have a guest worker program under which we place those workers. I'm not talking about legalization here which is a separate issue. I'm simply saying that the 12 million jobs filled by unauthorized immigrants are obviously available in the economy and don't displace US workers because we're at a historically low unemployment level right now - just over 4% (well within statistical full employment).

So the question is whether we choose to have these 12 million jobs filled by people in an illegal status or we choose to fill them through a regulated guest worker system where wages and working conditions are regulated, workers can come and go from the country rather than being trapped here due to fear of crossing the border (and keeping their families here for fear of permanent separation).

I don't know any leading Democrat who thinks that the status quo is acceptable.

[Democrat]

"That is of course simply not true.
Or are you really seriously claiming that people like the late Peter Jennings of ABC (he was Canadian) were driving down the wages for American TV moderators???
Or that that the invention of the microprocessor at Intel, a company co-founded by an immigrant, drove down wages? On the contrary, it helped start a whole new industry, with lots and lots of new jobs created.
So, if you are for real, educate yourself and stop embarrassing yourself and the party you claim to support."

I am not talking about individuals, I am talking about massive importation of guest workers using various programs. All these guest worker programs are nothing but corporate subsidies that boost the corporate profits at the cost of hardworking americans.

[JoeF]

"All the legal immigrants drive down the wages for americans."

That is of course simply not true.
Or are you really seriously claiming that people like the late Peter Jennings of ABC (he was Canadian) were driving down the wages for American TV moderators???
Or that that the invention of the microprocessor at Intel, a company co-founded by an immigrant, drove down wages? On the contrary, it helped start a whole new industry, with lots and lots of new jobs created.
So, if you are for real, educate yourself and stop embarrassing yourself and the party you claim to support.

[Democrat]

I am a Democrat, I am for legalization of the undocumented immigrants but I am opposed any guest worker programs because these guest workers supress the wages for americans. All the legal immigrants drive down the wages for americans. All the undocumented workers do the jobs americans dont want to do . If more people are allowed to come thru the legal channels they will not do the jobs americans dont want to do but they compete for the jobs that americans want to do.

[Jack]

'Whether foreign workers should be able to unionize or organize is a different question, about which reasonable people may disagree. The Foundation's view is that temporary non-immigrant workers are here to work and earn money, not to get involved in political, cultural or social issues.'

An imported serf class! Now THAT's anti-immigrant. This old lady is an 'anti'! She's also anti-government. Her "Two Paths Initiative" is similar to that kooky Mike Pence plan with private companies taking over immigration processing and setting up employment agencies on foreign soil. You know, the one nobody took seriously. She's also anti-American worker. No requirement to demonstrate that no American will take the posted job or what effect her plan would have on American workers' employment and wages.

Nice poll questions. Who knew there was a little foundation dedicated to perpetuating this infamous non sequitur from Bush:

'If the job is to secure this border, it seems like to me we've got to stop the number of people who are trying to sneak across in the first place. And the best way to do that is to make a temporary worker program a part of immigration reform.'

What the heck? Even Greg says 'I have no doubt that we could make life so tough on unauthorized workers on their employers and tighten up the border that we could effectively end illegal immigration.' Employer enforcement is the way to deter illegal immigration but Krieble, Pence, Norquist, etc. need a justification for selling out American workers for the benefit of hirers.