MICHIGAN COMMITS ECONOMIC SUICIDE

Well maybe I'm being a bit dramatic, but why would you establish a policy of limiting drivers licenses only to green card holders and US citizens? Legal immigrants on visas (such as H-1Bs, F-1 students, J-1s, etc.) can no longer get drivers licenses in Michigan.

So if you're a multinational corporation operating in Michigan, you need to immediately begin thinking about moving your operations to another state. And all those American workers at your plants are just going to have to deal with it. If you're a US company in Michigan and think you're going to be able to recruit top global talent, sorry folks. And if you're a premiere university planning on attracting top students, researchers and scholars, you're out of luck.

Congrats Michigan! </sarcasm off>

Comments

[THEODORE]

i am a nigerian as a home base and my sister traveled to france for postitution and i want her home ;and as she is out there in france she is there with out a ducumnents , so i want her home .please reply to my email box then i give u her house adress in france and also send her picture to you people to get her reall identity.

[legal-forever-waiting-forever]

no-name needs an update....and a life :-)

Send it to :

P.O. Box 1250
Summit NJ 07902-1250

Does that mean you don't want the truckload of produce and several tons of cotton? All I need is an address and I'll have it offloaded.

[USC]

"American automaker can't even sell their crap in the US"

Here's a test for all here. Go to your local mall. Count the first 100 cars you see in the parking lot. Only 30 or so will be Ford/GM/Chrysler!

[Legal and no longer waiting]

Roy, you don't get again. How about you buy a computer and an operating system from me? No, it won't be Windows, Apple, or Linux, that would be something [crappy] else, just for the kicks of it. Will you?

If you say the Japanese don't have a choice, you are wrong. Japan is the most competitive auto market in the wold. They have everything, nuch better than you ever had in the US.

American automaker can't even sell their crap in the US, and Japan is just out the question. Don't you get it?

[R. Lawson]

RL: "My solution is reciprocal trade...Doesn't that sound like a fair deal to you?"

L&NLW: "No, it is not a fair deal, it is a stupid deal"

OK Legal and Waiting, you are right. Because of this, I am willing to enter into a deal with you that you will get the better end on (according to your logic). Here is my proposal:

Any time someone in your family needs produce, they can buy it from someone in my family - we have a large farm and cheap workers so you will get a great deal. We also have tons of cotton that you will need to make clothing. The government has been kind enough to subsidize my seed so you can get a really good deal!

If someone in my family ever needs to buy clothing, they will have the option of buying from someone in your family. However, they will need to pay a 25% transaction fee to me.

I know, this is a horrible deal for me and my family. But I value our friendship so I am willing to endure this.

So, what address shall we deliver the produce to? And, which factory would you like the ginned cotton shipped to?

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"That is not my solution. My solution is reciprocal trade. If Japan wants no taxes on our end, we should expect the same on their end. Doesn't that sound like a fair deal to you?"

So, if your neighbor shoots himself in the foot, you should reciprocate and do it, too?

No, it is not a fair deal, it is a stupid deal, regardless whether anyone else is doing it or not. Please, read about Russia, and their effort to shield domestic automakers from competition. As a result, consumers suffer, taxes are dumped into a black hole, and all for what - to flood the street with really (and I mean REALLY) crappy vehicles, at sky-high prices. Apparently, that's your way, Roy.

[RL]

"He is toast. "

He will still have enough delegates to broker a deal at the convention even if he doesn't get the nomination. I seriously doubt he would support Clinton, and would throw his support to Obama. Clinton has too many negatives - so it would likely be an Obama/Edwards ticket. I hope that is what we get.

We'll see. I would pick McCain over Clinton if she were on the ticket. At least he supports campaign finance reform. Clinton hasn't met a lobbyist she won't take money from.

[USC]

"I'm still hopefull the candidate with the JD from UNC has a chance."

He is toast. Additionally, his less than whole-hearted effort to campaign for the Kerry-Edwards ticket leads me to favor McCain over him. My choices would be Clinton, Obama, McCain and then Edwards.

[R. Lawson]

"So I'm fairly confident that the Yale Law Grad and Harvard Law grad running for the Democratic nomination will get it. "

I'm still hopefull the candidate with the JD from UNC has a chance. Would be nice to have a President who actually picked up a broom once or twice in his life. It's not like he can use his bachelor's degree in Textile Technology any more, unless he wants to move to China.

[Greg Siskind]

I'm not going to endorse any candidates here, but do I think McCain is great on trade and immigration? You bet. By the way, most Presidents turn out to be good on these issues since they have to see the big picture and quickly realize that the economy requires free trade in goods and services in order to remain competitive. So I'm fairly confident that the Yale Law Grad and Harvard Law grad running for the Democratic nomination will get it.

[R. Lawson]

" Unfortunately, some of the growth-impeding, anti-trade policies being pursued by the Roys of the world are likely to end that streak fairly soon. "

So you are going to be voting for McCain? McCain is probably your best bet if you are against the "Roys of the world".

Edwards and Obama will push for more equitable trade. Even Clinton says she will do something about the disparities.

[Greg Siskind]

>>So what you are saying is that Country B will eventually collapse (shoot self in foot) but what are the citizens of Country A to do while they are faced with the end result of such an unfair trade relationship? Just ride out the storm?<<

Quite the opposite happens actually. Consumers in country A usually prosper. Specific producers of goods and services get hurt and they will often lobby hard to impose retaliatory trade measures (much like you're doing in your field) to protect their positions. But in the macro view, this is a huge mistake. All retaliating will do is destroy the broader economy.

Incidentally, there's pretty strong empirical evidence over the last 20 years to support my contention. The US has gone longer without a recession than any period in our history. Unfortunately, some of the growth-impeding, anti-trade policies being pursued by the Roys of the world are likely to end that streak fairly soon.

[Nitin]

"At the end of the day, somebody is going to lose when it comes to unfair trade. In our case, American sales and marketing people lose to lower cost people offshore"

Roy - Some people on both sides lose and some people on both sides win. Hopefully, winners outnumber the losers and are fair taxes go towards some compensation to those who have not done well.

For every IT winner in India, there is a farmer who loses when he has to pay more for diesel as the currency is weak. India imports more than it exports.

Remember, US has a reserve currency and is in the previliged position of being able to pay for oil in exchange of pictures of dead presidents. Other mortals have to accumulate a fund of dollars and have to adjust their currency in response to the US printing presses.

[R. Lawson]

Q1. EU has stronger worker protections than the US. Should American products be banned there?

We have a trade imbalance with them. So, I think that on balance they have a good thing going. Up to them.

Q2. What is wrong with a poor country competing on cost?

Nothing.

I have adapted my business to the market. India sells low cost development. It is good for large, predictable projects with large corporations.

We sell higher cost development tailored to projects that require higher levels of service.

To keep an eye on cost, I am currently offshoring sales, marketing, and lead generation - but keeping the production onshore. Our focus is on quality. If you know any people offshore with good spoken English and a knack for sales and marketing - I am looking. They will be helping us grow here in the United States. We are marketing this as reverse offshoring - because the offshore staff actually create more opportunities here. It's win-win.

The problem isn't that India is low cost. The problem is that they are engaged in currency manipulation which makes their costs artificially low - granted India is getting better than even a year ago, and making gradual adjustments.

At the end of the day, somebody is going to lose when it comes to unfair trade. In our case, American sales and marketing people lose to lower cost people offshore.

[Nitin]

"In our case, we don't have an imbalance of trade with just one nation. Our imbalance is with Mexico, Canada, Japan, China, and India (BCDEF). How can we ride out such a large storm/imbalance?"
Hint: "less deficit spending"

Q1. EU has stronger worker protections than the US. Should American products be banned there?
Q2. What is wrong with a poor country competing on cost?

[Nitin]

I don't think there is any such thing as an American or Japanese car. Components are made all over the globe and assembled close to the final market.

I reminds me of a Garment factory I once visited in Asia that made jeans. They did everything but stitch the label and the zipper. Then the garment would be shipped to the UK, where the label and zipper were attached .. and presto .. made in the UK!!

Another example is in my industry (semiconductors). The chip designers sit in 3 continents, manufacturing is done in china, packaging in Malaysia, software in India .. The margin is lowest in manufacturing, most of the work is accomplished by robots and automated equipment (not too many jobs).

I say let the protectionists have their way. Nothing will change except for a bit of inflation. Immigrants are easy to bash.

[R. Lawson]

Greg:

"Country B will experience inflation and it's consumers will pay more unnecessarily and this will drain economic growth and the overall vitality of the economy."

So what you are saying is that Country B will eventually collapse (shoot self in foot) but what are the citizens of Country A to do while they are faced with the end result of such an unfair trade relationship? Just ride out the storm?

In our case, we don't have an imbalance of trade with just one nation. Our imbalance is with Mexico, Canada, Japan, China, and India (BCDEF). How can we ride out such a large storm/imbalance?

Final question regarding trade. What if country B has horrible human rights, labor, and environmental standards. What should country A do then if that becomes a competitive disadvantage?

[Greg Siskind]

>>Doesn't that sound like a fair deal to you?<<

When I was at the University of Chicago for law school, I focused my studies on international trade regulation and that's actually one of the areas I thought about for a career. One of the concepts that I had difficulty understanding at first was that when one country imposes trade barriers, the best economic solution is almost always NOT to retaliate but to simply let the other country shoot itself in the foot. In other words you have country A and country B. Country A has no trade barrier and allows in country B's goods without taxes. Country B taxes the goods of country A giving its manufacturers an unfair advantage. Should Country A tax Country B's goods to retaliate?

Under your logic, the answer is yes. Except that economists have show in numerous studies over the decades that Country A is better off doing nothing. Country B will experience inflation and it's consumers will pay more unnecessarily and this will drain economic growth and the overall vitality of the economy. While competitors in a particular industry in Country A will be hurt by failing to retaliate, consumers in Country A will overall do much better by paying less and being able to have a higher standard of living and spend money that will spur further growth.

Japan is a great example of this. They have been mired in difficult economic times for much of the past two decades and it is largely because of the protectionism in their economy. The Roys of Japan have held sway in their government and Japanese consumers have paid a steep price.

[R. Lawson]

"I know your solution, of course, you already proposed it - tax the Japanese for selling their cars. "

That is not my solution. My solution is reciprocal trade. If Japan wants no taxes on our end, we should expect the same on their end. Doesn't that sound like a fair deal to you?

If they don't want to play fairly, than we should tarriff them whatever they tarriff us. Reciprocal trade. Do you really think we should give our trading partners an advantage over us?

What we have learned from China is that simply asking politely that they play fair doesn't work. We must leverage our buying power to force them to play fair.

I'm all for giving them hints and warning before we make adjustments. But at some point we must show that we are serious. Jawboning just doesn't work when it comes to this. To anyone following trade negotiations closely, it is obvious that our current approach of polite negotiations just isn't working.

The Chinese trade reps must be laughing their asses off at us behind our backs. I'll bet that they have some running joke regarding our trade reps.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

Roy, and why again you don't drive an American car? Let me answer that question for you - you want a cheap car, and Hyundai is cheaper than American cars, with the same and possibly better quality. If you think American cars in the low tier are any better, just look at the ratings for Dodge Neon, hopefully, it will make you feel better.

Those who want a car that does not break, no longer buy Ford and GM, but choose Toyota or Honda. Those who want luxury, no longer buy Lincolns or Cadillacs, but Lexuses and Acuras. Again, American cars lose in all segments now, cheap, mid-level, and luxury. Why - because foreign cars better fit consumer needs. Winning consumers is the most level plain field, and American car manufacturers lost that battle.

I know your solution, of course, you already proposed it - tax the Japanese for selling their cars. Typical protectionist. Well, that will not work, it will must make the demise of American auto industry longer and more painful, as consumers will have no options, but throw more good money after bad.

By the way, if the Japanese loved American cars that much, American manufacturers would have opened plants there. Yet, it did not happen. Why? Because Japanese are no fools, they choose better cars (and Japanese cars built in Japan are actually even better than those made/sold here). American manufacturers never had a slightest chance of making it in Japan. But don't tell it to Roy...

[R. Lawson]

I think the 2002 model is a major improvement from the 2000. It's been awhile since I researched this, but the window motor on some of the older Elantras were notorious for going out.

Now, you get get the motors from Autozone, but before 2007 you had to go to the manufacturer. They wait 7 years to allow others to produce some of their parts so they can deplete their own inventories. The result of this was over $1500 in window related repairs. It would be cheaper to repair now.

I've got a "loose" transmission now - it makes noises as I accelerate. So my guess is that I don't have much longer on this car. Oh well, it's paid for. Every mile I get now is bonus.

"I drive a Hyundai Elantra. I have replaced every window motor once, and the driver side window motor twice. That's a total of five window motors over 8 years. Not to mention some recalls, serious engine problems, etc. I am religious about changing the fluids every 3000 miles."

Don't know what to say except that you must have the worst luck. I drive a 2002 Elantra as well, and all I have had to do is have the dealer fix a blown interior light. Covered under warranty of course. And I haven't been particular about oil changes either. My experience is not atypical, the car is listed in the Edmunds used car best bets.

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/bestbet/articles/

[R. Lawson]

"Mercedes Benz does. As do a host of non US manufacturers. "

Mercedes sells high-end cars. We aren't talking about the same market here. If you sell high end cars, like Jaguar or Land Rover my guess is that you get the extra customer service.

In any event, this is not why they aren't selling millions of mass produced cars in Japan. It may be why they aren't selling thousands of luxury vehicles in Japan.

[USC]

"USC - of course they aren't going to make one-offs if it doesn't make business sense for them."

Mercedes Benz does. As do a host of non US manufacturers.

"If they had millions of orders from Japan and could be viable in that market, I can guarantee that they wouldn't let a steering wheel get in their way."

You are not going to get those millions of orders if your attitude is that you don't care. Mercedes will beat you every time.

[b]

"I'll answer it again: Anyone who is in this country legally should have the same driving rights as all Americans. That includes the executives, workers, and anyone else my wide net hasn't covered."

See it wasn't that hard.

"I'll go even further. I think all legal immigrants in this country should have the SAME rights as American citizens (except voting). This means the ability to change jobs, drive, say whatever they wish to the media, join unions, or whatever legal activity they so choose to do in our democracy."

You can put your conviction to practice. Write that letter from the Immigration Voice to the President, which takes care of these issue. Roy, be a proud member of IV.

[R. Lawson]

USC - of course they aren't going to make one-offs if it doesn't make business sense for them.

If they had millions of orders from Japan and could be viable in that market, I can guarantee that they wouldn't let a steering wheel get in their way.

Are you saying that the only reason we don't have mass produced American automobiles in Japan is because the wheel is on the other side? That is too funny.

[USC]

"So Japanese must not buy our cars because of the quality, right? Wrong. They love our cars. They don't buy them because the Japanese government charges thousands of dollars to bring in a car."

RL, the real reason is that Detroit is insular. Japan drives on the left hand side.

http://www.i18nguy.com/driver-side.html

Try calling the custom order department at Ford, GM or Chrysler. They will decline the order on account of the steering wheel being on the wrong side.

Now, try calling Mercedes in Wolfsburg, Germany they will be happy to take your order with the steering wheel on either side.

[Greg Siskind]

Thanks Roy. Glad to hear some common sense.

[R. Lawson]

Greg, I didn't see your question, although I have answered it in my initial post.

I'll answer it again: Anyone who is in this country legally should have the same driving rights as all Americans. That includes the executives, workers, and anyone else my wide net hasn't covered.

In short, if your analysis of the law is correct - the law is stupid and should be written so that legal immigrants are not excluded from driving.

I'll go even further. I think all legal immigrants in this country should have the SAME rights as American citizens (except voting). This means the ability to change jobs, drive, say whatever they wish to the media, join unions, or whatever legal activity they so choose to do in our democracy.

[R. Lawson]

And one more point on Japan. Who has spent time in Japan? Ooooh - me me, I have!

Rarely do you see an American car in Japan. When I was in Hokaido I saw just a handful. Most came because American military members brought them with and later sold them.

So Japanese must not buy our cars because of the quality, right? Wrong. They love our cars. They don't buy them because the Japanese government charges thousands of dollars to bring in a car.

So half of our trade deal with Japanese automakers was good. We told them they could have access to our markets if they build the cars in the US.

The other half was not so good because Japan didn't open their markets to our manufacturers. All those rich consumers in Japan - the world's #2 economy - not able to buy our vehicles as a result. So the predictable result is unbalanced trade.

You don't need to watch Lou Dobbs or listen to me to know this. Just look at the data. Huge trade deficits with every single major trading partner.

[Greg Siskind]

Roy - I'm still waiting on your response to my query. To refresh your memory, I asked you about the 200,000 American workers employed by foreign owned companies in Michigan (1 in 15 workers) and whether you agreed that the owners, executives and managers of these job engines should be barred from driving. You've been dodging that one hoping the question would be forgotten.

[R. Lawson]

B - you snake. When you drop off the second sentence of the paragraph you change the meaning of what I was saying.

"Why should we need any foreign nation to bail us out?

**********Our flawed trade policy has put us in a weak position where we need more foreign investment.*************"

To Legal and...

"And the government also ordered Ford, Chrysler, and GM to make crappy cars. For 30 years in a row."

I drive a Hyundai Elantra. I have replaced every window motor once, and the driver side window motor twice. That's a total of five window motors over 8 years. Not to mention some recalls, serious engine problems, etc. I am religious about changing the fluids every 3000 miles.

So I wouldn't say the US has cornered the market on crappy cars. There are plenty of crappy cars out there.

I think you mean to say is that American auto makers weren't building cars that Americans want to buy, not that the quality is low. In many cases - especially in the last 10 years - guilty. But that doesn't change the fact that trade law are not balanced. I'm sure they are scraping the bottom of the barrel for R&D money given that they don't have the unfair trade advantages of some of their partners.

More good news though. This is all going to work itself out. The dollar is going to tank, and pretty soon we can start pegging our currency to the yuan.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"Tata and other foreign companies will invest in MI and other American companies for one simple reason: our government screwed up the economy and there is a fire sale."

And the government also ordered Ford, Chrysler, and GM to make crappy cars. For 30 years in a row.

Wake up, Roy. Americans are just as able to screw it themselves as their government.

[b]

"Tata or any other company isn't going to invest in Michigan to create jobs. They are going to invest in order to make money. I seriously doubt Tata would invest heavily in Detroit though."

Does Roy the Manly Spine really believe American companies invest primarily to create jobs? Time for Roy to move to a welfare state. I knew you are a bunch of commies in the PG.

"Why should we need any foreign nation to bail us out?"

Yup, I knew given enough rough you were going to xxxx yourself. You are right, the banks should return the funds to Singapore and Dubai, taken to cover recent losses. China should dump all their dollars for Euro. US should close its borders, and the rest of the world should close their's for anything US. Did I capture your great idea correctly Einstein?

[R. Lawson]

"Why should Tata invest in MI, create jobs and foster growth when their own execs and engineers won't have any mobility?!!!"

Why should we need any foreign nation to bail us out? Our flawed trade policy has put us in a weak position where we need more foreign investment.

Tata and other foreign companies will invest in MI and other American companies for one simple reason: our government screwed up the economy and there is a fire sale.

Tata or any other company isn't going to invest in Michigan to create jobs. They are going to invest in order to make money. I seriously doubt Tata would invest heavily in Detroit though.

Why should they when they can build cars cheaper outside of the US and ship them in? They could build a plant in Mexico and get the goods in under NAFTA like China is planning.

You said Tata is after Jaguar and Land Rover. Those are premium brands. They don't have the vision or the experience to revive the mainstream automotive market in the US. Under current trade laws, those industries are going to die - it's just a matter of time.

On the bright side, Wal-Mart is hiring.

[Aspen]

Case in point:
Tata Motors is in acquisition discussions with Ford, re: Jaguar & Land Rover. Ford would be happy to shed the units for a good price - get some dough in to stabilize their financial situation(refocus their efforts and retain some automotive jobs(Roy, are you listening)).

Assuming the transaction does happen, wonder what Tata's engineers who'd be coming down to motown for post merger integration will have to go through....

BTW, Tata is also partnering with Chrysler to launch electric vehicles and is looking at the viability of launching a truck platform independently in the US.
- Read: even more jobs into MI.

Why should Tata invest in MI, create jobs and foster growth when their own execs and engineers won't have any mobility?!!!
I mean whats the incentive for the Tata guys to choose MI over say AL or Ontario? or for that matter US over Mexico?

[b]

"This statement applies to all immigrants not just the ones on these visa cathegories and not just the ones in MI but all across the US where they are implementing these types of laws."

Yes but lets stay in context of the OP regarding temporary legal immigrant status.

[Another voice]

"Think about the $s that the H1, L1, F1s spend where they live:
Buying, renting a house, buying a car, incidentals, groceries, tuition fees at colleges, health care premiums - there is an entire economy around these people.
MI's economy is already bleeding, it has one of the worst real estate markets at the moment. I visited MI a few months back and there are so many houses for sale for many months now(if not years)."

This statement applies to all immigrants not just the ones on these visa cathegories and not just the ones in MI but all across the US where they are implementing these types of laws.

[legal-forever-waiting-forever]

http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showpost.php?p=216552&postcount=31

so what should happen to people like this guy?
what's his fault? he's waiting patiently for a green card, yup he was born in the wrong country...other than that?

[Aspen]

Think about the $s that the H1, L1, F1s spend where they live:
Buying, renting a house, buying a car, incidentals, groceries, tuition fees at colleges, health care premiums - there is an entire economy around these people.
MI's economy is already bleeding, it has one of the worst real estate markets at the moment. I visited MI a few months back and there are so many houses for sale for many months now(if not years). A small section of the population in some of the middle class communities like Rochester Hills and Troy are legal residents(H1, L1, etc.). Considering the economic situation in MI, I am sure some of these people were already thinking of moving out...slap a restrictive law like this on top and the deal is sealed.
If this situation is not rectified soon, you can definitely see a lot more houses coming on the market, a lot more vacant rental units, a lot less traffic into Kroger, a lot more inventory at the car dealerships....etc, etc, etc.
The wheels of commerce will just slow down.

If we want to talk protectionism, consider for a moment what will happen if the two largest population centers in the world - China & India shut doors to American businesses and undo some of the free market momentum. Guess where GE, GM, HP, MSFT, Nike, etc are gonna be, guess where the DOW Jones is gonna be...especially in 2008 when most of the upside in the financial markets is from overseas revenue.

What is the point of MI running campaigns(checkout The Economist, Fortune, Forbes, etc.) all over the world to attract investment and jobs when they are simultaneously creating laws that repel existing/new businesses.

Perhaps the Michigan Economic Development Board team should walk down the street and have a chat with the DMV.
Oh! Wait, they don't even have to get on the street - they are both in the Secretary of State, Terry Lynn's office!!!

MI is committing economic suicide.

[vikram]

I'm on H1B ..paying taxes for 7 years..Does Michigan don't like taxes. Can ppl on temp visas who pay taxes to Michigan state..stop doing that ? Is it legal?
If they can't give you freedom to move..why pay taxes?

[Lou]

Roy

Dude Detroit decline is because of American car comapnies are interested in bringing more models then increasing the efficiency . it is their own folly. Not NAFTA. They are under impression that gas prciess would be 99c per gallon eternally.

We are talking DLs here you again brought H1b into picture. Incorrigible you are ..

[Legal and no longer waiting]

Yes, Roy, fair trade works. American cars are piles of junk, and Americans choose to buy Japanese. You would think after Americans screwed up their auto industry, they would want to attract some foreign talent to fix the things, but apparently not. Trade is fair, so Michigan is going to continue its decline.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

Roy, you don't get it again - this country profits handsomely from me being here. Nobody owes me anything, but this country just can't refuse what I can offer. I am really sorry to hear it refused your offering. But don't worry, people like me pay into the system, so you are not going to die from hunger if the worst comes.

[b]

Roy the Manly Spine, the OP is about DL.

How does denying DL to immigrants without GC or citizenship working/stydying and living in MI help? Got a point to make?

No? OK, entertain us then.

[R. Lawson]

"Roy, you don't get it, do you? Truth is tough. Nobody owes you anything"

Right back at you. Nobody on this Earth is "owed" entry into our nation. No country is "owed" the right of trade. These are all things that have been granted and are at the discretion of our (elected) government. What our government giveth, it can taketh.

All of the front runners in this election are talking about fair trade right now - and the people still supporting NAFTA are few and far between. The Bush trade policy days are numbered, thank God. So is PNTR with China.

Fair trade works. Forcing China to stop pegging their currency is a good thing. Reciprocal trade is a good thing. But when you have unequal environment and labor standards that disparity must be adjusted. We can either roll back our protections, or we can demand our trading partners to increase their standards. I like door number two. Something I really enjoy is clean air and water - and whatever labor protections remain in this country.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

Yes, telling obese people to exersice is cruel. They are diabetic, and have high pressure, so they should be protected from ever walking more than 50 feet, given handicapped parking spaces and mechanical carts in grocery stores, so they can load up on burgers and chips without lifting anything.

Who cares that it is the lack of exercise that got them here in the first place, the best thing now is to continue to shield them from the tough truth and any physical activity. Isn't that what America stands for?

[Desertfox]

I got the point! Michigan actually wants to reduce overhead by not regulating the alien drivers. They specifically mentioned that you can be on a temporary visa and still be able to drive with the license from your own country, but then DMV is not even responsible for maintaining a driving history of these drivers. They would not have any jurisdiction on these foreign licenses and the roads may be a bit more unsafe because of these non-regulated drivers, but still they will save a ton of administrative overhead by doing this. Given the current crime rate numbers there, these non-regulated drivers will hardly be able to affect it, and I guess its a smart choice after all!!

[Another voice]

"My guess is that people in Michigan are pretty tired of all the brilliant ideas of "free traders" everywhere. I can remember when the autoworkers in Detroit were wearing pro-NAFTA t-shirts which their employer provider. They probably feel like suckers now."

Detroit is in trouble not because of NAFTA but because they are losing the car battle to Japaniese automakers, because with a resecion looming people will buy less big ticket items(cars) and because in people's minds their product was not as good as their counter part. Toyota by the way has built car plants in the US rather that taking them to Mexico and utilize NAFTA as a backdoor to the US market. The no DL issue has nothing to do with free trade but with a bad desicion by the Michigan gov that will make it worst for Michigan citizens and companies to stay or want to relocate into Michigan.

To borrow the environmental argument against immigration - job losses in Michigan are good for the environment.

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1696382,00.html

[b]

Don't worry. Roy will survive. He is a Manly Spine without a brain on either end. Roy, we missed the entertainment you provide. Don't run away again. Promise?

[Legal and no longer waiting]

Roy, you don't get it, do you? Truth is tough. Nobody owes you anything. Life is tough, but fair. At the end of the day, Japanese automakers did a better job, so they won. Keep on hiding from compatition in your cave, and you will be treated fairly - and you will lose again. And again.

[Greg Siskind]

Roy - I see you've ignored the rather important question of how this rule will impact the 200,000 American workers working for foreign companies now that the business owners and managers will no longer be able to get Michigan driver's licenses.

[paskal]

"We are entering a recession, if we aren't already in one. The job market tea leaves indicate problems on the horizon. Now is a perfect time to provide relief to American workers, and change H-1b laws so that we are protected during rough economic cycles in the economy.

For the record, I'm not speaking of current H-1b holders and those seeking a renewal of their visa. I am speaking of future H-1b applicants."

we can debate that issue, at least it's worth debating. but the discussion was on driver's licenses for people already in the country...with jobs. that's why i thought it was rather strange for you to START with that comment. either way, new workers are now going to be restricted by denying DL's??? is this the new backdoor immigration law? i generally agree that the H1B program could do with some reform...and that should include protections against fraudulent comapnies that misuse the law. this hurts everyone...americans and immigrants alike. however DL is hardly a way to get there.

[R. Lawson]

"Workers SHOULD BE forced to compete with other (yes, FOREIGN) workers, especially in Michigan. If they are shielded and not forced to compete, they will lose even faster. "

I'm sure the people in Michigan will appreciate your tough love. So you are only competing with them because you want to help them? Lol. I guess we should be overwhelmed with gratitude.

My guess is that people in Michigan are pretty tired of all the brilliant ideas of "free traders" everywhere. I can remember when the autoworkers in Detroit were wearing pro-NAFTA t-shirts which their employer provider. They probably feel like suckers now.

These "free trade" agreements are neither free or fair. I don't know anyone asking for protectionism. I think the word is parity. Our trading partners add other taxes to our goods, they just stopped calling them tarriffs. How absurd is that.

[Another voice]

Protectionism is not going to equal economic growth. Companies will determine first if they want to invest in Michigan and second what sort of labor force do they need, if they are availabale in Michigan then they will hire the people from there. But if there are immigrants that are more qualified or better trained for these jobs government should not force companies to not have them available to them. If the government does that these companies simply will not invest or take their business to Michigan which makes the headline resonate "Michigan commits economic suicide".

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"The economy in Michigan is horrible and the workers there should not be forced to compete with additional workers. "

Workers SHOULD BE forced to compete with other (yes, FOREIGN) workers, especially in Michigan. If they are shielded and not forced to compete, they will lose even faster. That's actually what let to the demise of Michigan economy.

If you have a drop of the gray metter left in your brain, Roy, you could have by now made the only logical conclusion: declining population (like, MI) -> declining growth -> growing unemployment (highest in the country currently) -> declining population. Those are self-enforcing things, and sending productive workers packing is only going to spin it further, thus increasing unemployment among MI natives.

Oh, I forgot, you don't have any grey matter left, you are in the loser guild.

[bobzibub]

So, you can get a pilot's licence in MI but not a driver's licence? How pedestrian. ; )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_certification_in_the_United_States

[Kalifornian]

Well the frogs in Michigan wells have won and let them roam in their wells and make what all laws they want ( that is democrazy ).

[EB]

I don't live in Michigan..but this is bad news...how much more pathetic can this get?

Meanwhile the guy representing the loser's guild writes: "The economy in Michigan is horrible and the workers there should not be forced to compete with additional workers"

Yeah...he is right..instead the companies will be better off competing from a foreign country or from a different state within the US with saner laws.

It's the season of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man.

[R. Lawson]

"your first response makes no sense. Are you advocating throwing setlled productive workers out of Michigan because it's having hard times?"

It made perfect sense. The economy in Michigan is horrible and the workers there should not be forced to compete with additional workers.

And to answer your question: No. I don't advocate throwing anyone out of Michigan - that would be a draconian measure. Strange that you would suggest such a thing.

We are entering a recession, if we aren't already in one. The job market tea leaves indicate problems on the horizon. Now is a perfect time to provide relief to American workers, and change H-1b laws so that we are protected during rough economic cycles in the economy.

For the record, I'm not speaking of current H-1b holders and those seeking a renewal of their visa. I am speaking of future H-1b applicants.

Can someone explain how come there is the ineligibility clause for SSN. Only the some of the non immigrant visas are not entitled to SSN. All permanent residents have SSN, correct me if I am wrong

[paskal]

for those who still do not believe- this is from the SEcy of State- read what she says about temporary workers below:

State driver's license requirements now include permanent legal presence in U.S.
Contact: (Media Contact) Kelly Chesney 517-373-2520
Agency: Secretary of State

JANUARY 21, 2008

Secretary Land promotes border, document security

First-time applicants for a Michigan driver's license or identification card must prove that they have established a permanent legal presence in the United States, under a requirement taking effect Tuesday, Jan. 22, Secretary of State Terri Lynn Land announced today.

Land's push to enhance driver's license security can now move forward due to a recent attorney general's opinion. The opinion says that under current law the state cannot issue a driver's license to anyone who is not in the country legally and permanently. Today's announcement only deals with original applications. Updated procedures for renewals will be released soon.

"This is one more tool in our initiative to bolster Michigan's border and document security," Land said. "It also puts Michigan's procedure in line with those of most other states. The department will maintain its highest standards of customer service by sharing information with the public and working with applicants so that they understand the requirements. We all share the goal of a safer Michigan and America."

As of Tuesday, applicants for an original driver's license or state-issued ID card must meet four standards in addition to Michigan's driving and physical health requirements by providing documentation of:

A valid Social Security number or ineligibility for one. Applicants will have to bring their Social Security card or other acceptable document to a Secretary of State office, or a letter of ineligibility from the U.S. Social Security Administration.
Legal and permanent presence in the United States.
Their identity (legal name and date of birth).
Michigan residency.
A list of acceptable documents is at www.Michigan.gov/sos. The Web site includes information on obtaining a Social Security card from the federal government.

Land encouraged customers to make sure they have the documents necessary to complete their applications before going to a branch office.

She added that the new policy actually complements the department's commitment to speeding up branch office service. Because fewer foreign identity documents will be accepted from applicants, employees at the counter won't be confronted with as many time-consuming transactions and can serve other customers. Documents that need additional verification will be reviewed in Lansing rather than in branch offices. In those instances a customer may be asked to visit the branch again.

Land also pointed out that the number of original applications processed in branch offices is relatively small, accounting for less than 4 percent of all branch transactions.

A state lawmaker recently asked Michigan's attorney general to revisit a 1995 opinion that has guided Michigan's policy to this point. The 1995 opinion said the department could not refuse to issue a license simply because the applicant was not legally in the country. The most recent opinion takes precedence over the earlier opinion.

Land already has been working to enhance driver's license security. In December 2007 she proposed the creation of an upgraded "standard" driver's license and an optional "enhanced" version that can be used in place of a passport at the Canadian border. The plan is being considered by the Legislature.

Her proposal would change the law to allow residents who are in the U.S. legally but temporarily to apply for an upgraded standard license.

"Michigan has many outstanding residents who contribute greatly to our economy and society even though they're here on a temporary basis," Land said. "Businesses rely on these talented individuals as well. Under the attorney general's opinion, those who are in the country legally but on temporary student or work visas are ineligible for a Michigan license, though most still can drive using the license of their home country. We need to reconsider that aspect of the law to avoid unintended consequences for individuals or job providers. I encourage citizens to voice their support for our proposal and contact their legislators."

Information on Land's initiative is at www.Michigan.gov/sos. It is titled "The Drive for a Safer Michigan" and is found under "News and Headlines"

[paskal]

That being said, the law is stupid. Anyone legally in this country should be able to get a license. I can't imagine Michigan deliberately drafting a law that discriminates against legal immigrants or guest workers. Are you sure that you are interpreting the law correctly?

Roy:

Read the press release and see the list of required documents. It cannot be clearer. No GC = No DL.

your first response makes no sense. Are you advocating throwing setlled productive workers out of Michigan because it's having hard times?
i know you do not like the corporations, but that would cause them to run too...and surely that is not your prescription for MI's ills...?

[matts]

I looked up the MI SOS site, it does not mention that DL's are only for GC holders or citizens as they have a mention about SSN & also inelgibility for SSN (eg H4), so if they allow that that does indicate that any legal resident can apply for a driver's license

[Greg Siskind]

I wouldn't expect anything other than a pre-programmed shallow response from Roy. But consider this. Michigan ranks ninth in the nation in the number of workers hired by foreign companies. It hosts 1,000+ companies from 20+ countries.Those firms employ 205,000 Michigan residents (about one in every 15 private-sector jobs). Why would a company pick a state where its transferred executives and managers can't drive. A lot of US workers' jobs could be lost. Why does Roy hate American workers? ;-)

[R. Lawson]

Michigan has the highest unemployment in the country - I seriously doubt that there is a shortage of willing workers in that state and a need for the H-1b or L1 visa. Detroit has taken the brunt of the negative effects of free trade and should be spared any additional pressures on their job market.

That being said, the law is stupid. Anyone legally in this country should be able to get a license. I can't imagine Michigan deliberately drafting a law that discriminates against legal immigrants or guest workers. Are you sure that you are interpreting the law correctly?

[Another voice]

UNRELATED ARTICLE

ridging The Gaps
Mobile Clinic Delivers Care to Immigrants, but Challenges Are Daunting

By Lois Wessel
Special to The Washington Post
Tuesday, January 22, 2008; HE01

A42-year-old political refugee from Sierra Leone, trained as a chemist in France, recently showed up -- desperate -- at the mobile health clinic in Silver Spring where I work as a nurse practitioner. He had lost his health insurance, he explained in fluent English, after his hours had been cut at the university cafeteria where he was working as a cook and dishwasher. By the time I saw him, he had been without his diabetes medication for several months, his blood sugar was dangerously high and he was suffering from kidney damage. I got him back on his drugs, but not before sharing his frustration that his insurer could just drop him.

Stories like this are all too common among the immigrant patients I see at the nonprofit community clinic. All are uninsured. Most have had limited preventive care, and many suffer from chronic diseases including asthma, high blood pressure and diabetes.

Another patient, a squat middle-aged woman from Guatemala, came in wearing a food-stained apron and clutching a drug ad -- the Latin press is saturated with them -- for Botox. Did we offer this treatment? she asked, pointing to a fit young woman in the beauty magazine. I tried to break it to her gently that, for us, life-and-death needs take precedence over cosmetic procedures. But I was glad her worries about wrinkles had brought her in: She had severe high blood pressure. She left with skin lotion -- and medication and education to prevent a stroke or heart disease.

Medical problems like these are complicated by tenuous living arrangements, limited English skills and differing cultural values. No wonder frustration and burnout are high among people who try to help. But if we don't provide care, the incidence of preventable diseases will go up -- along with the costs.

Here, based on what I've seen, are some of the challenges we face:

¿ It's hard to get immigrants to take advantage of available services.

Patients I see at "Moby," as we call our van, are often wary of clinicians like me because of language barriers, fears about their immigration status and confusion about the health system. They worry about long waits that could jeopardize their jobs.

At the clinic, we try to build trust by hiring people fluent in Spanish (my second language), Farsi, Creole, Korean, Amharic and others, and partnering with trusted community groups. Patients learn, generally by word of mouth, that we provide care and medications on a sliding fee scale, in a language they understand and, when possible, from a medical provider from their country.

¿ Medication issues can complicate care.

We all know about over-the-counter drugs; many immigrants use what I call "under-the-counter" medications. Small local grocery stores, or bodegas, sell everything from tetracycline and other antibiotics to oral contraceptives. Patients often take tetracycline for whatever ails them, and many of my female patients are taking birth control pills that they acquire without a prescription. Then they show up with symptoms that may be tied to these drugs or a variety of herbs but are hesitant to admit what they are taking until they know they can trust me.

One young Salvadoran patient of mine who thought she had an ulcer -- but may just have had heartburn -- was taking misoprostol sent from her country. She didn't know that this ulcer-preventing drug is a component of the RU-486 regimen for medical abortions. Since she was considering having a baby, I took her off it. This is a very strong drug, I told her -- probably too strong for what she had. (She tested negative for the bacteria that cause stomach ulcers.) I gave her an over-the-counter medication and told her to stay away from spicy foods and coffee, and to sleep with lots of pillows (to reduce reflux).

¿ Language barriers take many forms.

Consider mistranslation. A young Peruvian woman, being evaluated for chronic urinary tract infections, was sent to a local hospital for a "clean-catch" urine specimen. But when the written instructions, translated badly into Spanish, directed her to "pee on the bed," she left the lab without leaving a specimen. After I explained what she was supposed to do, she was so grateful that she brought me a hand-knitted cap.

While trained medical interpreters are increasingly available, many clinics still rely on family members instead. I have seen a school-age child asked to interpret for a parent being checked for a sexually transmitted disease or to relay a cancer diagnosis to a grandparent. The law requires any organization receiving federal funds to provide interpretation to people who speak limited English. Still, clinics don't have enough bilingual staff, and many don't know that companies such as ATT provide county-subsidized phone interpretation services.

Even when the same language is spoken, cultural descriptions of ailments and symptoms can stump clinicians. "A fire deep inside" (code for heartburn or arthritis) or "air stuck in the back" (meaning a muscle spasm) requires us to expand our thinking.

Even telling a patient to take a drug "twice a day" isn't straightforward. It took me a while to realize that some patients were taking their medication upon waking, and their second pill with breakfast.

Most educated health consumers can provide a basic medical history, estimate the date of their last tetanus shot or report whether their grandmother died of stomach or colon cancer. For many immigrants, though, family history is unknown because their relatives died suddenly, and there was no system to analyze the cause of death. My Dominican patients often state that a family member died of "patatu" -- it means an unknown cause.

¿ The poor health of many immigrant patients is aggravated by poverty.

With the rise of obesity and its related problems, including heart disease and diabetes, I encourage my patients to maintain a low-fat, plant-based diet. Many come from countries where fresh fruit and vegetables are cheap, and processed and fast foods are expensive. When they arrive here, the situation flips and their diets often worsen.

They sometimes tell me that eight packs of ramen noodles (high in fat and sodium) cost $1, but they cannot buy enough vegetables for a salad for that price.

¿ Immigrants need access to mental health, dental health and specialty services.

Wait lists for these services are long, transportation is difficult, and appointments often conflict with work and child-care needs.

To get prenatal care or eye exams, patients must first get a referral from us, then have their eligibility verified in another office and then wait for services elsewhere.

One patient of mine fled Nicaragua during the Contra war and suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder, compounded by her concern for her teenage son, who is stationed in Iraq. So far, she has been unable to find mental health services in Spanish.

[legal-forever-waiting-forever]

"I am not sure this includes legal residents on H/L/O/J etc. I dont think they really mean LPR. I presume this will be against the federal law.

read the memo. it's as clear as can be. you need a green card to get a new driver's license. renewal rules are coming up soon, no reason theyw ill be any different.

and...people have called the SOS' office in MI to inquire and been told "get a GC if you want a DL"

[LegalOption]

Hmm, I smell a business opportunity here in insuring drivers with valid licenses from foreign countries :-).

[LegalOption]

"May the insurance industry is not so upset after all they get to charge higher premiums for Insurance Policies."

Well, the single most important reason why we buy insurance is so that insurance industry lawyers can duke it out amongst themselves in case of a liability claim. In this case, the obvious response in the face of higher premiums is a) to drive older cars so that you don't have to bother with comprehensive coverage and b) to switch to dodgy insurers offering lower premiums and insuring drivers at state minimums.

The average insurance company will not win from this.

[john]

I am not sure this includes legal residents on H/L/O/J etc. I dont think they really mean LPR. I presume this will be against the federal law. It is amazing to see this people still believe immigrants took their jobs instead of the failed policy of this leaders. add more fuel to the already started fire.

[Another voice]

On that note I heard through reliable sources that insurance companies are using the current Immigration sentiment in the country towards immigrants to fight personal injury cases in court. The think juries are not going to award large settlements to Immigrants (specially undocumented ones) even if an auto accident is not their fault and they are really hurt and have incurred large medical expenses. Insurance industry is playing all sides of the immigration debate to make more money or keep more of what they make.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

Michigan, which has been losing people over the last 30 years, just needs another blow when immigrants are fed up with stupidity and move where jobs are abundunt and DL are possible to get.

[Another voice]

May the insurance industry is not so upset after all they get to charge higher premiums for Insurance Policies.

[Nitin]

It's interesting to me that Michigan is willing to sacrifice the safety of its motorists in this way. Even if one can drive with a driver's license from another country, it may be difficult (or more expensive) to obtain insurance.

[Another voice]

All we can do with this type of idiocy is step back and watch them collapse is the only way they will learn, one state after the other keep making the same mistakes is just a trend and they are all jumping in the van wagon, until the Federal government decides to fix the Immigration system once and for all.

[Jose]

This is a tragic story and will make economy slowdown more.

[Beta_Mle]

Excuse me, but isn't a drivers license supposed to be for...driving? I am an H1 Visa holder and there is no way I could live and work in a state that does not allow me to drive.

One problem is that the drivers license has been sneakily converted to a defacto national ID. If the US people and gov't want a national ID, implement one! Meanwhile, let a drivers license do what it was supposed to do, ie regulate the competencies and skills of DRIVERS.