THE BLACK ECONOMY

It's getting ugly in Arizona as "Hispanic Panic" sets in. Arizona's draconian employer law went in to effect just a few weeks ago and the fall out is already apparent as immigrants flee the state and employers are having mass layoffs. And it looks like market forces are creating an alternative "black economy" where employees are paid in cash and all worker protections go out the window.

Comments

"you have not been able to refute that GOI lacks transparency"

And you have not been able to provide any specifics. BTW, good luck with your asylum application.

[R. Lawson]

"American society as we know it could not withstand that outcome. It would be days of political suppression, checkpoints, black arm bands and box cars. Nights of raids, bombings, kidnappings and fear. Real fear--not the duct tape and plastic sheeting kind governments design to frighten the old folks. "

Is this a veiled threat? It sure appears that way.

[b]

"All signs are there. Soon you may land up in the loony bin singing loony tunes and merry melodies."

Lou, try defending your theories if you can instead of indulging in personal attacks. So far you (and your nameless friend/s) have been proved wrong, and you have not been able to refute that GOI lacks transparency.
Anyone who has ever dealt with GOI will tell you transparency is not one of its best known attributes.

[Lou]

"Your theory disproved. You can continue reading the saffron paper, if you like. "

All signs are there. Soon you may land up in the loony bin singing loony tunes and merry melodies.

[paskal]

McCain leads on immigration in a poll of CA Republicans!

Poll: McCain springs ahead in California

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/28/california.poll.2008/index.html

When it comes to the issues, "Romney has a slight edge over McCain on economic matters, while McCain holds a big lead on the war in Iraq and terrorism among California Republicans," said CNN polling director Keating Holland.

The poll also suggests that a third of California Republican voters think McCain would do the best job handling illegal immigration. That's more than believe that Romney (20 percent), Giuliani (19 percent), or Huckabee (13 percent) would do the best job with that issue.

Most political observers believe McCain's standing among Republicans was hurt because of his backing of legislation that called for an eventual pathway to citizenship for some illegal immigrants. That's a stance that worries some conservatives. While he hasn't changed his position on illegal immigration, he now emphasizes beefing up border security first.

"This is the last reply otherwise"

Hmm, keeping to our word aren't we? Moron.

[b]

"Did u not read my message fully ?. I also mentioned that, for your intellectual levels , -- "it is enough for you to get started on that.""

Lou, you really need to take the recommended classes.

Okay I will come down to your intellectual level, and disprove your theory in three seconds: (1)I took a dime and flipped. Came out heads. (2) Flipped again second time, came out tails. (3) This disproves your theory that the single result is statistically relevant i.e. just because the first result was a heads, all the subsequent flips will result in heads is false.

Your theory disproved. You can continue reading the saffron paper, if you like.

[Lou]

"You will see then that a single example does not establish a statistically significant result"

Did u not read my message fully ?. I also mentioned that, for your intellectual levels , -- "it is enough for you to get started on that."

b,

Why don't you come back in a few years yourself and report on if the US is done exterminating Hispanics like the Native Americans?

[b]

"Yeah that is my proof. I think it is enough for you to get started on that."

Really that's your proof? Lou, you need to take some math and science classes. Come back in a few years. You will see then that a single example does not establish a statistically significant result. I thought high school education in the US was bad but apparently other countries are not doing that great either.

[Lou]

"That's your proof of using a single example to scientifically derive a statistically sound theory? "

Yeah that is my proof. I think it is enough for you to get started on that.

[b]

"How about outlookindia .. "

And the point you are trying to make is? Is that your proof of transparency in GOI? That's your proof of using a single example to scientifically derive a statistically sound theory?

[Lou]

How about outlookindia .. You can keep ranting in this page comment section.
Good luck ..

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080204&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=1

[b]

'b represents loads of BS. I think rediff is the best place for you b."

No Lou. Never liked the saffron paper much. Your CNN is better.

I guess my stating, citing an example of a woman PM in GOI does not reflect the status of women in India is BS. Stating lack of transparency in GOI is BS. Try refuting what I said instead of imagining what I haven't said.

[Lou]

b represents loads of BS. I think rediff is the best place for you b.

[b's issues]

i don't know what your issues are, not to say the current one is not either worth debating or without merit...but you have the wrong time, place and audience, so kindly stop.

you sound bitter, others may be too, and btw i speak as an indian minority citizen..and not a muslim, so i do have perspective. still...stop now, this is not productive.

"No, I expect you to be a mind reader who has learned state secrets by buzzing around buildings. Do you actually have to come in physical contact to read minds? Local policy makers like K.P.S. Gill? "

All I can say is that you are being really shallow.

"I guess you are hinting the US is responsible for the troubles in India "

Historically it was the Europeans who divided India on religious and racial lines and the US is the current representative of that civilization. Glance around India today, and analyze if the Europeans ever left the region. Ask yourself if the Europeans left, why is the US seen as the great satan by many people in the region?

"How goes your effort in getting the report, and driving India to wherever you desire?"

Pretty good. The center has held and is consolidating :-). Citizens are using the Right to Information Act to force GOI to make reports public to the extent possible.

"Fist off, use a handle. This is the last reply otherwise."

Good. This is not a very productive discussion.

[b]

Fist off, use a handle. This is the last reply otherwise.

"What, you think GOI is dumb to spell things out given the asymmetric nature of the relationship with external powers. To get a good understanding, you have to read some of the writings produced by local policy makers."

No, I expect you to be a mind reader who has learned state secrets by buzzing around buildings. Do you actually have to come in physical contact to read minds? Local policy makers like K.P.S. Gill? No comments.

Can you back up with facts what you claim? I guess you are hinting the US is responsible for the troubles in India and the dysfunctional GOI.

"Frankly, so do I. I'd like to read the report on the 1962 war or the one on Bose's death. Like the Indian Penal Code, this secrecy is part of the externally influenced mindset that GOI has to shed in order to drive India forward."

How goes your effort in getting the report, and driving India to wherever you desire?

"You said external power. ISI has been blamed by GOI explicitly, no other European or North American power been mentioned by GOI AFAIK."

What, you think GOI is dumb to spell things out given the asymmetric nature of the relationship with external powers. To get a good understanding, you have to read some of the writings produced by local policy makers.

A signficant milestone was reached in '47 w.r.t. these powers, but it was only a stepping stone. Just about everyone realizes the ISI is a tool just like a hired goon, and it's safe to blame the goon.

"I have my interests in a few reports of commissions that the govt promised would be public but back tracked, presumably the truth was too bitter. Will never know. "

Frankly, so do I. I'd like to read the report on the 1962 war or the one on Bose's death. Like the Indian Penal Code, this secrecy is part of the externally influenced mindset that GOI has to shed in order to drive India forward.

[b]

Correction: GOI did name China as Enemy 1, in recent past.

[b]

"What does the ISI has to do with this? "

You said external power. ISI has been blamed by GOI explicitly, no other European or North American power been mentioned by GOI AFAIK.

"What "truth" are you searching for?"
Since when we started putting quotes on the truth?

Context first: To verify certain claims regarding treatment of minorities in India. To come to any conclusion, transparency of GOI in the least.

I have my interests in a few reports of commissions that the govt promised would be public but back tracked, presumably the truth was too bitter. Will never know.

"Another clueless gem, buying the GOI ISI bogeyman story line, hook and sinker."

What does the ISI has to do with this? Hint: it was a European power and now is a North American power.

"The only question I care: Will GOI cooperate in finding the truth? "

What "truth" are you searching for?

[b]

hook, line and sinker

[b]

"Yes, they are under the influence of external powers. Fact in point is that the entire nation of Pakistan has been driven to ruin via interference from Western powers. Priority for India has always been to seek reduction of Western influence in the region so that Indian assimilation can work as it has done historically."

Another clueless gem, buying the GOI ISI bogeyman story line, hook and sinker.

The only question I care: Will GOI cooperate in finding the truth?

"Not much into hero worship or finding gems or exception to the rule. Fact is lot of minority areas (no I don't mean muslim, like you presume) are quite disaffected. Yeah, they are "misguided youths". "

Yes, they are under the influence of external powers. Fact in point is that the entire nation of Pakistan has been driven to ruin via interference from Western powers. Priority for India has always been to seek reduction of Western influence in the region so that Indian assimilation can work as it has done historically.

[b]

"Currently, the PM is "a minority." Numerous Presidents have been "a minority.""

From the fact that GOI had a woman PM, US had no woman Pres, you conclude the status of women in India is in general better than in the US. I know I am missing something deep in your argument supported by scientific and statistically relevant methodology.

How is the investigation by your Sikh PM into the killing of Sikhs in the 80s going?

Not much into hero worship or finding gems or exception to the rule. Fact is lot of minority areas (no I don't mean muslim, like you presume) are quite disaffected. Yeah, they are "misguided youths".

My experience: Hindus get quite touchy when it comes to Bharat Mata. Unwilling to acknowledge whats staring them in the face.

Besides, the question still remains. Can we expect GOI to cooperate in truth finding?

[Legal and no longer waiting]

I actually doubt that they will engage in any serious undeground rebellion activities, either. I was just pointing out a flaw in logic - closing down the border is not going to make the processes any slower.

What I am afraid of is that once the black economy is the only way to go, it will start spreading beyond the undocumented population and has a potential to get out of control. If you pay workers in cash you don't really care about them being illegal or citizens, so the black market may become standard practice in some industries, so that more and more American workers will be dragged into practice. Once it settles, it will take decades and a lot of effort to retur back to normal.

"On India"

This is something we say in India : Babur came to India a Timur but returned to Samarkand an Indian emperor. IMO, the US is a faint candle next to the assimilative power of India.

If anything the Indian experience teaches us, it is to preemptively deal with external political influence (in this case Western).

If the same analogy is to be extended to the US, it has to reckon with Hispanic influence. Doing this via assimilation is one option, but *not* the only one.

[Another voice]

These migrant workers are here to work I serously doubt that they would enagge any any activities other that to migrate to a state that allows the to provide food and support for their families with out feeling as prosecuted as they do in Arizona, Oklahoma, Georgia and any of the states that have implemented these Gestapo policies against them.

[USC]

"Ask a minority."

Currently, the PM is "a minority." Numerous Presidents have been "a minority."

"Even if it will (which I doubt), all it will do is seal the illegals in the county, thus giving them no other options but to fight for their rights."

Nothing dramatic will ever happen because there are built in mechanisms to release pressure. For one the 14th Amendment ensures that everyone from the second generation onwards are citizens. For another, by virtue of being distributed across the country, the illegals are not a significant portion of the populace such that they can band together for secessionist activities.

[Another voice]

Well we knew from previous experience that this law was not a good idea and we are just at the begining of the year the ripple effects will continue to come. With a resecion looming in the US and Mexco being the number 2 trading partner of the US the mexican economy will feel a bigger economic hit, if we get the flu they will get pulmonary disease. Immigration will continue to come and these workers will flee to other states they will not self deprot because hunger and extreme poverty are not an option for these families.

[b]

"This is not entirely an accurate statement. For one, India has a good record on its treatment of minorities. I doubt that you can establish that the GOI has a pattern of discriminating against minorites."

Will GOI help in this investigation to find the truth? Provide the requested govt records and such? You know the ROI works very differently in practice. Forget independent investigation, GOI could even start by making public the findings of the millions of committees (of govt employees or retired employees) it sets up every time things get out of hand. Committees are set up to just buy time, mollify public anger, and move from one crisis to another.

Free press... well we know what happens when they get out of line.

Ask a minority.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"but I suspect the border WILL be secured way before things get to that stage"

Even if it will (which I doubt), all it will do is seal the illegals in the county, thus giving them no other options but to fight for their rights.

[USC]

"History is littered with the same results when a majority suppressing a significant minority. Spain, Ireland, India, the Balkans, and countless other countries"

This is not entirely an accurate statement. For one, India has a good record on its treatment of minorities. I doubt that you can establish that the GOI has a pattern of discriminating against minorites.

Hispanic Panic, or just... HisPanic?!

"Spain, Ireland, India, the Balkans, and countless other countries have paid a terrible price for walking down the very same road."

No need to drag in other countries to prove your point. The current American republic itself was established via revolt against the crown. Yes, eventually the illegals can grow in numbers to the point where they can prove they are "Americans" by establishing a new republic, but I suspect the border WILL be secured way before things get to that stage.

[bobzibub]

An underground labour market is not the only logical conclusion: If un-documented Mexicans in the US truly go "underground", they will be completely outside the law and would be "illegal on sight". This would spawn resistance movements like the Zapatistas and all Hispanics would be under scrutiny as many have never lived adult lives in Mexico.

American society as we know it could not withstand that outcome. It would be days of political suppression, checkpoints, black arm bands and box cars. Nights of raids, bombings, kidnappings and fear. Real fear--not the duct tape and plastic sheeting kind governments design to frighten the old folks. History is littered with the same results when a majority suppressing a significant minority. Spain, Ireland, India, the Balkans, and countless other countries have paid a terrible price for walking down the very same road.

Back in the 60s, even Canada's Quebecois minority (hardly suppressed) had her FLQ. They kidnapped and killed a parliamentarian, which led to rights being suspended (hippies rounded up everywhere, even on the West coast.). Luckily Trudeau came to his senses, being a former hippie himself. But the scale would be much greater across the US. The disparity is greater. The poverty greater. The desperation much greater. The lines are drawn by colour as well as nationality. And they will eventually fight for self determination.

Of course they'd lose. The point is that everyone loses, and we have a lot to lose. So if one chooses this path --and it is still a choice-- accept the full ramifications of this choice now. Because Nativism has torn apart, more places than I can count.