POSNER MAKES THE CONSERVATIVE CASE FOR LEGALIZATION

One of the great legal minds of our age, Judge Richard Posner (who, I should mention for full disclosure's sake, was, and still is, a professor at my law school), makes the case that mass deportation is a very, very bad idea and that the only acceptable option is, yes, an amnesty. I've made the argument numerous times on this blog that real conservatives like John McCain are not afraid to take on the issue, but the faux anti-business "conservatives" on this issue are selling out their principles when they argue for an enforcement only approach.

Comments

[Legal and no longer waiting]

Another Voice, you do not understand, he is talking about a civil society, you know, where citizens sit in the front of the bus, legal immigrants sit in the back of the bus, and illegal immigrants are hanging by the rail and getting banged up by the upcoming trtaffic. Don't you know, those rules are created for a reason and must be obeyed!

[Another voice]

clasp clap clap clap clasp clap!!!

"You are the lowest because you dont have any respect for civil soceity where rules mean something"

WOW what a citizen and human an example for the whole earth to see!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Another voice]

"So dont worry about my petiotions"

How about this English!!!!!!!!!

[Another voice]

"No wonder you guys hate learning english ..."

This guy has no argument he is just been an idiot!!!

[Another voice]

"This is what the "judge" says. You need a lesson in reading comprehension."

Because he is only talking about fixing the Illegal Immigration problem in the US he is not addressing the fact that Legal Immigrats face major hurdles or that the whole Immigration system does not need fixing besides he is not the ultimate word on these. When Government addreses CIR they have to include ALL Immigrants. Why do you think Silicon Valley donates the most money to Immgration friendly candidates do you think is just to be on their good side.

[Another voice]

"Legal immigrants need to be a point of reference otherwise it leads to more and more illegal immigration not less"

Legal Immigrants are a part of the Immigrant community in the US and there would be no Illegal Immigrants if the system allowed for them to come here illegally, there was never a choice between coming here illegally or legally. The 20 Million Illegals have a vital role in this economy just as Legal Immigrants do you remeber is the Nation of Immigrants. You want to hold your head up high because you did not have to come here illegally be my guest that does not mean that Illegal Immigration does not have to be fixed and this judge suggesting that as a matter of Law you have to be practical about it. Legal Immgration has channels to come but need major improvement to be better that does not mean that you have to do that before the other, we never know when or what they are going to fix that is why Immigrants have a better chance having a common agenda that each men/women for himself.

[Another voice]

"that's soooo funny!
the description sounds exactly like "another voice"!!!
rooting for one group only and shouting abuse whenever someone disagrees. you are a joke my friend"

Show me where I root for one and against the other and by they way is there a point to your post somewhere i KIND OF MISSED IT WITH ALL THE bs.

If my petitions are denied I will go back. I will have a good life anywhere I go, So dont worry about my petiotions and make sure that your illegal friends dont get deported.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"How many of your friends are illegal? You sure you are legal?"

BTW, do you want to be my illegal friend? You may as well sign up now, before your AOS is denied for some stupid reason.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"You are the lowest because you dont have any respect for civil soceity where rules mean something."

Getting there, getting there, but not low enough. I will give you an idea - Roy Lawson called me a pedophile when his arguments ran out. You have been out of arguments for the good part of the day, and currently in a spewing verbal vomite streak, but the question is - can you beat him?

"Good job, you just keep on sinking lower."

You are the lowest because you dont have any respect for civil soceity where rules mean something.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"How many of your friends are illegal? You sure you are legal?"

Good job, you just keep on sinking lower.

"Oh, there we go again, no arguments on the subject matter left, let's just throw anonynous ad hominem attacks.

Good luck to you guys. With such behavior, you will need a ton of it.
"
How many of your friends are illegal? You sure you are legal?

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"Illegals and kin of LNLW go back to the line. You dont get a free pass because you broke the rules."

Oh, there we go again, no arguments on the subject matter left, let's just throw anonynous ad hominem attacks.

Good luck to you guys. With such behavior, you will need a ton of it.

[Mexican]

All the Mexicans should be given green card so that there will not be any problem of illegal immigration.

Illegals and kin of LNLW go back to the line. You dont get a free pass because you broke the rules.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"No wonder you guys hate learning english ..."

Did you mean English?

"comprehention"

No wonder you guys hate learning english ...

[Legal and no longer waiting]

" If an amnesty solves our problems, the fact that it is in some global sense "unfair" to another set of foreigners deserves, in my opinion, no consideration"

Well, apparently, you have not advanced beyond reading comprehention. Maybe you should read it again and again until not only you understand the words, but what he MEANS.

Again, nowhere here he mentions that the those waiting for legal status need to have their cases crapped, slowed, or impacted negatively in any way. All he says is that amensty dicision should be independent of what is happenning to those in the legal channels.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"Legal immigrants need to be a point of reference otherwise it leads to more and more illegal immigration not less. "

Are you finally agreeing that these people come to the country illegally because they have no opportunity to come legally? Congratulations, our positions are getting closer.

Yes, to eliminate FUTURE illegal immigration, the legal immigration system needs to be opened up. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the problem the judge is trying to solve! Even if you eliminate all quotas, illegal population does not stop being illegal, the problem is not going anywhere! He is not saying that legal channels need to be shut down, eliminated, or opened up - he is saying that what happened happened, people are stuck in the legal backlog (and, by the way, he probably means FB, not EB when he says 'legal'), but it is not a reason not to solve the problem with existing illegal population. If you ask him what needs to be done to prevent people from coming illegally in the future, you may hear something that would surprise you, as he was judging on immigration cases, after all.

[L]

"All he said was the situation with legal immigration should not be a point of reference in deciding what to do with illegal immigration."

Legal immigrants need to be a point of reference otherwise it leads to more and more illegal immigration not less.

[s]

"But why the United States should care about these people is obscure. They are not Americans; we do not owe them anything. If an amnesty solves our problems, the fact that it is in some global sense "unfair" to another set of foreigners deserves, in my opinion, no consideration."

This is what the "judge" says. You need a lesson in reading comprehension.

[S]

"I think, you need to take a lesson in logic."

You need to take a course in common sense.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"All the legal immigrants will have a problem with this so called conservative judges view point that people waiting line need to be screwed. "

I am sorry, but if you read his opinion, he never even implied that those who are immigrating legally need to be screwed. All he said was the situation with legal immigration should not be a point of reference in deciding what to do with illegal immigration. I think, you need to take a lesson in logic.

[S]

"that's soooo funny!"

Exactly , these are the people who accuse others who disagree with them on fine print being buffoons and jokers.

[S]

"all sorts of accusation toward the less fortunate. "

Your hatred towards legal immigrants is very well documented. Most of the people here dont have any problem with the legalization of illegals or politically correct word undocumented a.k.a only hardworking immigrants. All the legal immigrants will have a problem with this so called conservative judges view point that people waiting line need to be screwed.

Any way good luck with your dream of amnesty for 20 million illegals.

[same old voice]

LNLW-Do waste your time on these people they are in the do not do anything to solve the immigration crisis unless you take care of us first camp. Selfish Immigrants, but then again we are all human after all.

that's soooo funny!
the description sounds exactly like "another voice"!!!
rooting for one group only and shouting abuse whenever someone disagrees. you are a joke my friend.

[Another voice]

LNLW-Do waste your time on these people they are in the do not do anything to solve the immigration crisis unless you take care of us first camp. Selfish Immigrants, but then again we are all human after all.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"EB folks are mainly afraid of being left out in the whole legalization scheme- not because "no one listens to arrogant buffoons" but because we are not 11 million or more potential votes. can you not understand the concern and the frustration? you appear to be one yourself...."

Well, then maybe, just maybe, they should start talking about why they deserve not to be left out? All I hear is anger, bitterness, and all sorts of accusation toward the less fortunate.

Your assumptions about 11 million votes are all worng, by the way. Ask Greg for his assessment of how long it would take for an illegal immigrant to become a citizen (and that's if they become citizens) - and you will see that most politicians who you think will get those votes, will not see the day.

[EB]

"Are you really skilled? I doubt you can read, let alone, work in a professional job."

may want to check your own id/handle with a dictionary first...glass houses anyone?
try keeping to the point instead of getting all emotional about the undocumented folks. EB folks are mainly afraid of being left out in the whole legalization scheme- not because "no one listens to arrogant buffoons" but because we are not 11 million or more potential votes. can you not understand the concern and the frustration? you appear to be one yourself....

[Lagal and no longer waiting]

"go and educate your illegal brethern,
...
Please dont assume that I cant read or write because most of your kin cant ...HEHE "

Oh, thanks for being a better human being and wishing poor people good education. And also showing your true colors.

[EB]

http://immigrationportal.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17270&d=1202337346

progress, recognition.
movement.
the result of pushing issues of immigration to the forefront.

it's not really pointless after all.

[Lou]

All people posting without any name . Please put some name for christs sake. It is difficult to understand who is saying what.

"Exactly, the proposal is to cancel every single immigration category, deport all who are here legally, and never let them in again.

Are you really skilled? I doubt you can read, let alone, work in a professional job."

My employer knows enough about my skills and education. If you care so much about education and skills , go and educate your illegal brethern, Most of them would have not completed highschool.

Please dont assume that I cant read or write because most of your kin cant ...HEHE

[Lagal and no longer waiting]

"Not really, you guys are ready to screw every other immigrant as long as you get citizenship for illegals. "

Exactly, the proposal is to cancel every single immigration category, deport all who are here legally, and never let them in again.

Are you really skilled? I doubt you can read, let alone, work in a professional job.

"As of now, jumping the fense is the only way to immigrate for many people. We were lucky we did not have to, but some of us are simply blind and do not understand what others had to go through. So, they just spew poison."

Not really, you guys are ready to screw every other immigrant as long as you get citizenship for illegals.

"Let's all congratulate mother Teresa over here!!!!!"

You are a catholic bishop... (Just because you support the illegal immigration) ....;)

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"The biggest problem is with the supporters of more illegal immigration. These clueless people think that jumping the fence is the only way of immigrating. You illegals think breaking rules deserves the best. "

As of now, jumping the fense is the only way to immigrate for many people. We were lucky we did not have to, but some of us are simply blind and do not understand what others had to go through. So, they just spew poison.

[Another voice]

"The biggest problem is with the supporters of more illegal immigration. These clueless people think that jumping the fence is the only way of immigrating. You illegals think breaking rules deserves the best"

Let's all congratulate mother Teresa over here!!!!!

[L]

"These people are clueless Immigration reform has to help all immigrants because congress and a new administration will not do one with out the other. All these bitter Immgrants that want to complaint that its all the fault of the undocumented are so full of it. They do not mind that Congress addreses the Undocumented as long as it does not get in their way because they are so special!!!!"

The biggest problem is with the supporters of more illegal immigration. These clueless people think that jumping the fence is the only way of immigrating. You illegals think breaking rules deserves the best.

[Another voice]

These people are clueless Immigration reform has to help all immigrants because congress and a new administration will not do one with out the other. All these bitter Immgrants that want to complaint that its all the fault of the undocumented are so full of it. They do not mind that Congress addreses the Undocumented as long as it does not get in their way because they are so special!!!!

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"Really, If illegals are not whiners and buffoons , why congress is not helping them ...HEHE....."

So, why are you then complaining that every time your talk to a Congressmen/Senator, all they are interested in talking about is illegal immigration, and nobody wants to revard you for bing legal?..

"I am sorry that you have not learned that people do not want to deal with whiners and arrogrant baffoons. Let alone, help them. You may return to shooting yourself in the foot now."

Really, If illegals are not whiners and buffoons , why congress is not helping them ...HEHE.....

[Legal and no longer waiting]

I am sorry that you have not learned that people do not want to deal with whiners and arrogrant baffoons. Let alone, help them. You may return to shooting yourself in the foot now.

"Yeah-yeah, rant on, like that's any help to your case."

And off we go with the ad-hominem attacks. This one is especially rich coming from a self admitted ranter.

[No wonder]

No wonder some americans are really worried about the changes that will be brought by legalization of millions. One dont have to go anywhere , just look at the arguments made by the advocates of the illegals here. These guys are as radical as the right wing nuts. If NumbersUSA is one extreme , La Raza is other extreme. Both sides dont want anyone who is different from them.

[Y]

Yeah , Keep encouraging more of the same. Take the job of Coyote as a volunteer so that you can fill with more people.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

Yeah-yeah, rant on, like that's any help to your case.

[ILL]

"Yes, as a bunch of bitter people. Remember, there has not been any EB friendly legislation since October 2000."

Wow, this illegal lobby hates people who dont look like them or dont speak their language or dont behave like them by stealing identities etc... and want to hijack american immigration system.

[Illegal]

"Yes, as a bunch of bitter people. Remember, there has not been any EB friendly legislation since October 2000."

When did last amnesty happened? 1986????

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"No. It has resulted in some recognition of this group of immigrants. "

Yes, as a bunch of bitter people. Remember, there has not been any EB friendly legislation since October 2000.

"I also think that pointless piursuit of relative fairness poisoned EBs message to a point where nobody wants to help them, so they are just shooting themseves in the foot with it."

No. It has resulted in some recognition of this group of immigrants. EB immigration has been under siege since the 1965 changes reoriented the immigration system towards family reunification. The result has been this endless debate about illegal immigration since a large chunk on intending EB immigrants has no way in through the current system.

[Eng]

"I also think that pointless piursuit of relative fairness poisoned EBs message to a point where nobody wants to help them, so they are just shooting themseves in the foot with it."

Is this supposed to be english?

[Eng]

"I also think that pointless piursuit of relative fairness poisoned EBs message to a point where nobody wants to help them, so they are just shooting themseves in the foot with it."

Is this supposed be english?

[Legal and no longer waiting]

George, would you agree that anyone who is not excludable (criminal and such) and have lived in the country for over XX years, should be given an opportunity to become a citizen regardless of their current status (legal or illegal)? This concept is called regornition of permanent residence, and I believe last time it was seriously discussed by politicians was under Clinton administration. I strongly believe in this concept, and I think that it does not matter if this concept is "blanket amnesty" or not, it is just something that makes total sense, and quite honestly, I don't care if someone thinks it is unfair (of course, always to them).

I also think that pointless piursuit of relative fairness poisoned EBs message to a point where nobody wants to help them, so they are just shooting themseves in the foot with it.

[George Chell]

"Guys, did you even read the opinion of the judge? He spands MOST of the piece describing exactly why the illegal population should be given amnesty. The simple answer to that question - because they put food on American's table, and you simply can't argue with that. And yes, that includes your table, too (unless you grow your own food, which I doubt)."

I have and I understand very well. When it is between human law and economic law, we can repeal the human law but not the economic law. I am all for a very large guest worker program particularly in the ag sector. The argument that if we give higher wages to attract Americans workers does not wash. It would increase food prices making it very difficult for US farmers to compete with foreign products. Or, we would end up increasing our ag subsidies running up even higher deficits to offset the costs due to higher wages. I for one cannot afford a $3/lb tomatos let alond $5/lb tomatos and American public even those who can afford it say that they will pay higher prices but would switch to low priced foreign products. You stop buying foreign products, they will stop buying boeing, microsoft and motorola and more people would be unemployed. So that is not an option. However, permanent residency should be given on an individual basis, not blanket amnesty. For instance, if the illegal is married to a US citizen and has kids, they should be legalized after paying a large fine. GOP claims to be a party of family values. My question to Romney was how they reconcile family values with their intention of splitting up families. Of course, they have no answers. For many of the folks in the House Immigration Reform Caucus family values stops with white people, if that. Anchor babies are a different story. A party that is opposed to abortion under more circumstances and which wants to protect the sanctity of the fetus has no moral authority to oppose birthright citizenship. This is typical GOP with a few exceptions. They want to protect the rights of the unborn but take away the rights after birth.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

Guys, did you even read the opinion of the judge? He spands MOST of the piece describing exactly why the illegal population should be given amnesty. The simple answer to that question - because they put food on American's table, and you simply can't argue with that. And yes, that includes your table, too (unless you grow your own food, which I doubt).

[George Chell]

Regarding legal skilled immigrants the US has to do just two things: Abolish Section 214-b, "the intending immigrant" clause for student visas. This is the biggest anti-competitive and anti-US regulation which ensures that we loose talent to countries such as Singapore and Australia and also guarantees that we loose jobs through outsourcing and outbound foreign direct investment to these countries. Secondly, we also need to lift the national origin caps on skilled immigrant visas. Capping the number of visas at 9% for each nationality is pretty dumb and also guarantees loss of talent and investment. If we do these two things without even lifting the 140,000 visa cap for all nationals based on skills, we would go a long way to alleviate the problems. Finally let me make one thing clear. People who argue that salaries of American professionals will go up as a result of visa restrictions are deluded or on drugs. US corporations dont have to hire Americans if foreigners are not let into the country. They just have to move the jobs to where the foreigners are: either the home country of these foreigners or immigrant friendly countries such as Singapore and Australia. People who do not understand this have no business making immigration policy. Law or not, in the end forces of economics win out.

[L]

"Amercians are free to invite people to live here, and they are free to invite those who they feel should get it. Being legal does not make one deserve a green card, and that's all you've been talking about. If you had changed your tune and for a moment talked about WHY EXACTLY you deserve to stay, maybe, judge Posner would have been convinced."

Yeah exactly americans spoke during the last CIR debate. They showed their love for illegals. You can carry as much water you want to carry for these law breakers at the cost of people who follow the rules. Lets see how soon your beloved illegals will get citizenship...

[EB]

Well, guys this just highlights that legal immigrants (EBs in particular) made no case as to why they should be given green cards.

yes of course. the judge has spoken. who are we to argue?
what a case illegals made....we can just see the whole country converted to amnesty...good show! shame on us....

btw i have no problems with the undocumented or their legalization. you seem to have plenty against EB folks though.
strange given you benefited from that program.

"Well, guys this just highlights that legal immigrants (EBs in particular) made no case as to why they should be given green cards."

I don't know. Looks like Posner is playing the classic anti-immigrant card of pitting one group of immigrants against another. A lot of the support for Posner here seems derived from his opinion in favor of one of your narrow positions.

[jamesVanderbeek]

Well "Lagal and no longer waiting" ... It easy for you to say... you are no longer waiting. The judge definitely doesnt owe you anything. I hope that the judge's arguments were totally and completely in the legal context and no way political. It seems logical to me the equation if he did make that statement in a political sense (if he was running for office/votes) but not economical, not just, not right and not common sense. It is just not the right thing to do to trample the people in front of you.

I always thought the conservatives were for doing the right thing, by thinking about what makes common sense, what would God do if .... This guy is thinking more like a legally compartmentalized conservative robot thinking in zeros and ones ... just like a horse who has blinds on the side of his eyes so that it doesnt see anything else but the road in the front.
You cant reason with such a person.

Heck clear the line at USCIS first, secure the border and then add in who ever applies next.

[Lagal and no longer waiting]

Well, guys this just highlights that legal immigrants (EBs in particular) made no case as to why they should be given green cards.

Amercians are free to invite people to live here, and they are free to invite those who they feel should get it. Being legal does not make one deserve a green card, and that's all you've been talking about. If you had changed your tune and for a moment talked about WHY EXACTLY you deserve to stay, maybe, judge Posner would have been convinced.

[Greg Siskind]

>>Otherwise these "judges" and illegal lobby would be lobbying for suspension of processing of all other applications by USCIS except Z visas. Disgusting .....<<

Yeah, Posner is considered one of the most conservative judges in the country and has been on the short list for nomination to the Supreme Court for every Republican President since Reagan. Another one of these liberal law making judges. Face it, you can't demonize this guy.

[L]

" I viewed it as a statement by a judge as to what the law requires, and whether a duty is owed to these individuals under the law.
"

Really in that case under what law duty is owed to illegals?

[CIR]

Thank God CIR is dead and no chance of coming back. Otherwise these "judges" and illegal lobby would be lobbying for suspension of processing of all other applications by USCIS except Z visas. Disgusting .....

[Z]

"Posner is legally correct to state that the interests of foreign individuals waiting in line - for a discretionary benefit that can be revoked by Congress - are not a legal basis to reject amnesty out of hand"

Congress can make any law it wants. Anyone who knows basic civics will understand that.. may not be your beloved illegals. They dont want to go thru any tests basic civics or not ...oops ... Every person whose last name ends in Z should be given a Z visa ..Thats the law this illegal lobby wants to be written by Congress. Good luck with that baby .

[jamesVanderbeek]

Grace ...I agree... poor choice of words by Judge Posner.. taken out of "legal" context is very inflammatory. just as one word out of context brought down CIR ..."amnesty" ...
Not that I supported CIR ...

[Grace]

For all of the commenters who have been aggressively bashing Judge Posner, he has authored many, many legal decisions reversing decisions to deny asylum, recognizing that individuals in immigration court did not get a fair hearing, and berating the CIS for general incompetence. Generally, he is pro-immigrant in most of the cases I have read.

Posner's comments on illegal immigration and amnesty were solely on the factors of law and economics. This field of study does not involve weighing the good or bad choices, or the morals of a choice - it only involves weighing the economic and legal impacts of a choice. Posner is legally correct to state that the interests of foreign individuals waiting in line - for a discretionary benefit that can be revoked by Congress - are not a legal basis to reject amnesty out of hand. He did say it in a way that was harsher than I would have liked, but I didn't view that statement as bashing those who have been waiting to legally immigrate; I viewed it as a statement by a judge as to what the law requires, and whether a duty is owed to these individuals under the law.

[A]

"Who says that the american system is fair or life is fair for tha matter, it isn't and that is the cold true!!!!!!!!"

Yeah, Ok I agree , Life is not fair ... In that case why you argue for illegals?

[jamesVanderbeek]

ha ha ha ...
now look who is mad ...
so a mad man calls a sane man mad .... so who is mad ???

[Lou]

Some times I wonder ... it is another voice or another noise. :-)

[Another voice]

wow you are really mad man, they say the one that gets mad is usually because it is losing the argument is that your case? just wondering? calling me names and everything un real!!!

[jamesVanderbeek]

alas ... utterly childish ... grow up dude

[Another voice]

But if I did GOOOD!!!

[Another voice]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh are MAD did I hurt your feelings, I am sorry!!!

[jamesVanderbeek]

yup .... Blah Blah Blah to you too :)

[Another voice]

" This guy is an absolute disgrace to the american system of fairness. "

Who says that the american system is fair or life is fair for tha matter, it isn't and that is the cold true!!!!!!!!

[Another voice]

Bla Bla Bla Bla go head make a Illegal v. Legal is not going to change or help your current situation or current system. You will still be the same old bitter immigrants but I still think you are barking at the wrong tree!!!!

[jamesVanderbeek]

"I dont think this "judge" is giving a legal opinion. He is giving a political opinion. There is a difference between both."

I was being sarcastic to AV's comment about me missing the point...

AV how about this ..... give the one time waiver for country quota and visa dates to the legals waiting for the Visa dates ... provided the legals clear the FBI name check and other security checks ...
Now legals get out of the USCIS line rightfully so right since they followed all the rules??? and now USCIS has a clean slate to begin accepting any and all applications from every one who applies ...illegals get a chance to apply for GC -> citizenship after other conditions set are met (back taxes , fines et all)....

[Yes]

"same old stuff from the voice...as long as his/her illegal kin get amnesty that is all that matters. let the legal immigrants rot in line. who cares?"

Exactly, According illegal lobby who follow the rules are fools.

[A]

"Maybe you are right .... that blog was for discussing legalese of amnesty. So the point was legal remedies, legal justifications for it and from that "legal" point of view legal immigrants are now where in picture since they create a totally separate "legal" class of people from the "illegal class" of people. and so the justification goes ....these separate classes require separate solutions independent of each other??????"

I dont think this "judge" is giving a legal opinion. He is giving a political opinion. There is a difference between both.

[same old voice]

This is an awsome legal opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!! I like Judge Posner's analysis and legal thinking. Its practical and forward thinking and it counter's the usual points made by the antis in regards to amnesty.

same old stuff from the voice...as long as his/her illegal kin get amnesty that is all that matters. let the legal immigrants rot in line. who cares?

[Rahul]

Third, it is argued that an amnesty would be unfair to those foreigners patiently waiting in line for permission to immigrate legally to the United States. But why the United States should care about these people is obscure. They are not Americans; we do not owe them anything. If an amnesty solves our problems, the fact that it is in some global sense "unfair" to another set of foreigners deserves, in my opinion, no consideration.

What? Don't forget that the potential legal immigrants also include employment-based immigrants who have been here legally on work visa since late 1990s and paying taxes. These hard-working legally here folks are as American as ever.

Posner is a self-righteous pig to say "America does not owe them anything!"

[jamesVanderbeek]

"If you want to make this about Legal Immigrant v. Illegal Immigrant you are missing the point. When lawyers in Congress meaning your Senators and Representatives write laws they consider some of these legal opinions when weighing the pros and cons of writing a law a certain way."

Maybe you are right .... that blog was for discussing legalese of amnesty. So the point was legal remedies, legal justifications for it and from that "legal" point of view legal immigrants are now where in picture since they create a totally separate "legal" class of people from the "illegal class" of people. and so the justification goes ....these separate classes require separate solutions independent of each other??????

[L]

"I do not think people should take offense to Judge Posner's statements in his opinion as he is merely analyzing how to solve the undocumented immigrants issue."

It is very offensive to suggest that spouses/children/brothers/sisters of american citizens who are waiting in the line patiently for their turn dont deserve a fair shake with the system because they are not americans but illegals who dont have any respect for the immigration system or rules should given citizenship/greencard immidiately. This professor/judge lost his mind. He is trying to give political opinions not legal ones. This guy is an absolute disgrace to the american system of fairness. This guy is nothing but a left wing nut job.

[Another voice]

"Yeah .... I am willing to discount that last statement Posner made if the legals waiting for Visa dates are given a one time waiver from the visa date, country quota requirement"

If you want to make this about Legal Immigrant v. Illegal Immigrant you are missing the point. When lawyers in Congress meaning your Senators and Representatives write laws they consider some of these legal opinions when weighing the pros and cons of writing a law a certain way.

[jamesVanderbeek]

Yeah .... I am willing to discount that last statement Posner made if the legals waiting for Visa dates are given a one time waiver from the visa date, country quota requirement.

[Another voice]

I think that this could be a start when Congress is analyzing the legal basis for solving the Undocumented worker issue and dealing with the broken Immigration system but this can not just end there it would have to be accompanied by resolving current issues affecting all legal immigrants as well as a better design for any immigrant wishing to come to US regardless of the skill level as long as there is a job here. With the baby boomer generation retiring lots of immigrants of all skill levels will be needed to fill the void left by the retirees. I do not think people should take offense to Judge Posner's statements in his opinion as he is merely analyzing how to solve the undocumented immigrants issue.

[D]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2008/02/04/intv.dobbs.vs.murguia.cnn?iref=24hours

The Natl Council of Laraza's Murugia is on Lou Dobbs kicking that bigot's a**.

[Another voice]

This is an awsome legal opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!! I like Judge Posner's analysis and legal thinking. Its practical and forward thinking and it counter's the usual points made by the antis in regards to amnesty.

[jamesVanderbeek]

The judge has lost his judgement !!!!

[Legal]

And this guy is supposed to be a judge huh...Now I see why some people hate judges who legislate from the bench.

[A]

"Third, it is argued that an amnesty would be unfair to those foreigners patiently waiting in line for permission to immigrate legally to the United States. But why the United States should care about these people is obscure. They are not Americans; we do not owe them anything. If an amnesty solves our problems, the fact that it is in some global sense "unfair" to another set of foreigners deserves, in my opinion, no consideration"

Exactly the message is the best way to immigrate to USA is jump the fence or overstay the visa. Great ... More rule breakers in the country is good for america.

[WD]

Good article until it ends with a dangerous end note.

"Third, it is argued that an amnesty would be unfair to those foreigners patiently waiting in line for permission to immigrate legally to the United States. But why the United States should care about these people is obscure. They are not Americans; we do not owe them anything. If an amnesty solves our problems, the fact that it is in some global sense "unfair" to another set of foreigners deserves, in my opinion, no consideration."

Isn't a Judge supposed to be upholding law? Judge Posner seems to think otherwise. His solution to "undocumented" immigration - let the legal immigrants rot, let's reward law-breakers first.

With this kind of attitude shown to them, so called pro-immigrants shouldn't be surprised that legal immigrants are mightily displeased with such love for "undocumented" and hatred of legal law-abiding people.

[jamesVanderbeek]

I find his statement "They are not Americans; we do not owe them anything." OFFENSIVE and perverse ... foreigners can make a reverse (also perverse) argument that since they are not americans , why should they pay taxes and social security .... they dont owe the americans anything either ....

Third, it is argued that an amnesty would be unfair to those foreigners patiently waiting in line for permission to immigrate legally to the United States. But why the United States should care about these people is obscure. They are not Americans; we do not owe them anything. If an amnesty solves our problems, the fact that it is in some global sense "unfair" to another set of foreigners deserves, in my opinion, no consideration.

Posted by Richard Posner at 02:17 PM