DOBBS' BEAUTIES

We're honored, Lou. (hat tip to Dan Kowalski for the link)

Comments

[Where Art Thou RL?]

RL...we miss you! Come back...we promise not to make you cry...you can share the ice cream too! ;-)

[paul]

>> Who is RL?

The one who must not be named, aka "you-know-who".

[George Chell]

Who is RL?

[George Chell]

"But you have a point to the extent in that the fraction of the best and brightest Indian students coming to the US is declining. But this has more to do with future expectations from the US economy than with the quality of Indian students. After all there are very moderate growth expectations for the US economy in the coming decade and the chances of a mechanical engineer finding a job today are better in Pune or Bangalore than in Detroit or Seattle."

The number of best and brightest students coming to the US even at the research level is declining, and if they cannot find a well pauing job in Pune or Bangalore, there is always Singapore, where a mechanical engineer today can earn more in US$ than here in the US...

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/The_Global_Indian_Takeover/Skilled_Indians_shop_for_jobs_in_Singapore/articleshow/3165855.cms

Also it is clear that corporations around the world are moving IT jobs to Singapore in search of IT talent...here is an example from Ireland, and HR people for US corporations in Singapore such as Microsoft and Intel tell me the same thing...

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Redundancies-announced-at-Shannon-firm.4236128.jp

http://www.ireland-digital.co.uk/IT-firm-Avocent-axes-64-jobs-in-Ireland_6472.aspx

The Programmers Guild along with labor economists such as Borjas and Briggs can bury their head in sand thinking that one less immigrant means one more job for an American, or they can read this and weep!

[USC]

"hint: look at the Programmer's Guild"

This is a wee-reasoned post. While remarks such as these are likely to please those like me. RL is not likely to be pleased!! As the saying goes you can't please all of the people.....

Some of you may know that RL was banned from this blog. I am amused to learn that making a reference to RL's full name causes your post to be tagged as spam!

[USC]

"The admission decisions in these cases are made by professors at American colleges."

This is only true for the Graduate and Post-Graduate level. At the Undergraduate level Professors don't have that much input.

[BeeDee]

"But alas, it is a very widespread phenomenon amongst Indians who come to the US to think they are the best, and that everyone who "didn't make it" to the US is stupid."

The original comment was made in the context of Indian students coming to the US to study. The admission decisions in these cases are made by professors at American colleges. So if you are saying that these professors are not selecting the best and brightest Indians, then that equally applies to any student from a country other than India - unless you want to argue that American professors are favoring Indians over other nationalities when it comes to granting admisssions to engineering courses.

But you have a point to the extent in that the fraction of the best and brightest Indian students coming to the US is declining. But this has more to do with future expectations from the US economy than with the quality of Indian students. After all there are very moderate growth expectations for the US economy in the coming decade and the chances of a mechanical engineer finding a job today are better in Pune or Bangalore than in Detroit or Seattle.

[George Chell]

"It's not very hard to find many excellent Indian researchers, engineers, and executives who work in Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan, Germany, Switzerland (yes, google for ETH Zurich, CERN, etc), or the UK. But alas, it is a very widespread phenomenon amongst Indians who come to the US to think they are the best, and that everyone who "didn't make it" to the US is stupid."

A number of them in Singapore have US degrees but cannot work in the US. The US congress thinks that those jobs will go to Americans. Think again! They go to the same Indians and others, but this time in Singapore, and the US government looses tons in tax revenues and social security receipts. These guys will pay taxes in Singapore, which will run a surplus and the US government will go to Singapore to borrow more.

[paul]

>> Of course there will always be people who will not be able to come here, and will end up in the pseudo-schools of UK or australia

You mean, like this guy:

http://homepages.cwi.nl/~ns/

or the other two, who didn't even go to the excellent US schools but got their PhDs in India:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manindra_agrawal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neeraj_Kayal

Interesting how two of the best and the brightest Indians (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/AKSPrimalityTest.html) didn't even "make it" to the US.

It's not very hard to find many excellent Indian researchers, engineers, and executives who work in Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan, Germany, Switzerland (yes, google for ETH Zurich, CERN, etc), or the UK. But alas, it is a very widespread phenomenon amongst Indians who come to the US to think they are the best, and that everyone who "didn't make it" to the US is stupid.

>> You cannot have it both ways. You implied that India produces hordes of "unemployable engineers" who land up in the US solely because of the dominance of Indian IT Consulting companies......You don't have to put Indians down to make that point.

Actually this doesn't make my statement false. Clearly, India produces some really excellent top-quality engineers and researchers, but they aren't in the thousands. Like every other booming economy, there are thousands of people who do not have the talent, but simply jump on the IT/Engineering bandwagon just because it's profitable, trendy, etc. This is not "putting down" Indians. We had the same phenomenon in the US during the dot-com boom years when students with no interest in computing began majoring in CS and hordes of WalMart cashiers, janitors, marketing/history graduates, artists, and truck drivers started taking MS and CISCO certificates to get into IT or became "web-designers". We all know how all this ended and where these people are now (hint: look at the Programmer's Guild or other similar organizations if you're wandering what happened to them).

[George Chell]

"If i am a student from India, and want to go abroad to study, where would i go??? Not to the EU, Russia or other Asian countries... but will go to the US, just because the sheer quality of the programs and number of institutions for graduate study is simply the best..."

Answer: I have family members who are Indians. There are two kinds of Indians: one who just want to leave India or at least their state; the other is particular about the US. One who wants to leave India generally prefer to work in places such as Singapore and Hong Kong..Asian countries and less hassle with a standard of living higher than most parts of the US...no one can blame them.

"Of course there will always be people who will not be able to come here, and will end up in the pseudo-schools of UK or australia (cannot call them univesities, they teach nothing of value and their sole aim is to make money off of these students)"

Answer: If one wants Permanent Residence quickly one goes to Australia or Canada. If one wants quick employment one goes to Singapore or Hong Kong. If one has a plenty of time, you come here to the US.

"I am an engineer from India, my employer feels i am very much ""employable"", and i am not making any assumptions on your nationality."

Welcome to the US. Hope you can find employment here. I would prefer that people like you eventually get an MBA and challenge the Americans now heading our broke banking and airline industry for CEO positions. With the way the things are going, if we want prosperity most firms will not employ Americans as CEOs, unless it is for show and tell or a University management job...unforunately it is a status symbol for many firms in places such as Asia to have an American executive...nothing much to offer...US universities are the last bastions of excellence still standing where Americans as well as foreigners excel..totally agree with you, but given a chance some Americans particularly racists like Mark Kirkorian and Dan Steyn would like to ruin that as well by wanting to give preference to incompetent Americans over competent ones from abroad.

[employable engineer]

Paul

>>>(Do you honestly believe that the whole EU, Russia, and other countries in Asia taken together produce so few >>>engineers/programmers/etc. in comparison to India? After all, we're talking about countries that Indians flock to
>>> go to school to, so they can't really be that stupid.)

Indians flock to go to school to the EU, Russia and other Asian countries... what a joke???

Could you show some data on the number of students from India that go to study in each of these countries. (both absolute numbers and a percentage of the total students, so that i can have an idea about the distribution )

Personally, I don't think any of these places have institutions of decent quality (relatively compared to the US, and please note that there are always exceptions) where its worth studying...

If i am a student from India, and want to go abroad to study, where would i go??? Not to the EU, Russia or other Asian countries... but will go to the US, just because the sheer quality of the programs and number of institutions for graduate study is simply the best...

Of course there will always be people who will not be able to come here, and will end up in the pseudo-schools of UK or australia (cannot call them univesities, they teach nothing of value and their sole aim is to make money off of these students)

On a sidenote, i feel sorry when people say the EU and not identify themselves by their country, because for me When Britain and France join hands, just to beat Asia and the US, there is something wrong with that scenario... one being the lack of self-esteem

I am an engineer from India, my employer feels i am very much ""employable"", and i am not making any assumptions on your nationality.

[George Chell]

We will have the Buffet syndrome of inlfation exploding if the antis have their way...we let no one in on skilled quota and in the unlikely circumstances that jobs dont move abroad...

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/25/news/newsmakers/buffett_bernanke.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2008062608

We will have higher interest rates, stagflation and a very deep recession...perhaps that is what CIS and Dobbs want to encourage more xenophobia. If the Americans want good jobs they need to perform better than the management in the banking industry or the airlines/auto. Would I even interview an American executive if I was chairman of a Bank or Airline from anywhere in the world..the answer is no. The fact is the Americans have performed very poorly where they have predominated banking, investment houses and airlines. Industries where foreigners dominate, tech has done well. One can understand given the current situation in the US, tech does not want to hire Americans and rather move jobs abroad...they dont want to go the way of American dominated Banking and Airline industry and I wont blame them..I would move jobs abroad too!

[Sid]

Paul,

You cannot have it both ways. You implied that India produces hordes of "unemployable engineers" who land up in the US solely because of the dominance of Indian IT Consulting companies. Why would Microsoft or any other American company hire them even as contractors if they are unemployable?

I do not disagree that Indians have an advantage w.r.t. getting the H-1B visa because of the Indian IT Consulting companies. However, the ROW candidates have been at a real disadvantage only in the last 2 years due to the lottery and the EB backlog is around 7 years. Also, these Indian IT Consulting companies do not sponsor a lot of GCs. So, the Indians that are stuck in the backlog are mostly the ones working for American companies.

I'm not saying that ROW candidates are stupid or are inferior to Indians or Chinese. I accept that they have fewer avenues to get a job at an American company. You should also give some respect to Indians because they do work alongside ROW immigrants and Americans. If they sucked at what they did, they wouldn't be employable in a competitive economy like this.

I understand that you want to get your GC quickly, same as everyone else here, and the removal of per country quotas would increase your wait period. We get that. You don't have to put Indians down to make that point.

[BeeDee]

"Do you honestly believe that the whole EU, Russia, and other countries in Asia taken together produce so few engineers/programmers/etc. in comparison to India?"

This is fact. McKinsey has an excellent and in-depth report you can read. Registration is required to access it.

Their findings in suitability of engineers for employment in MNCs is -

Russia 10%
China 10%
Brazil 13%
Mexico 20%
India 25%
Czech republic 50%
Poland 50%
Hungary 50%

Thus, while as a percentage some of the Eastern European countries are graduating better trained engineers, due to the sheer numbers graduating, India is graduating about as many engineers suitable for employment in MNCs as is the US. Russia and China are crippled as they are graduating barely enough engineers to staff local development centers.

http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/reports/pdfs/emerginggloballabormarket/part2/MGI_supply_synthesis.pdf

"After all, we're talking about countries that Indians flock to go to school to, so they can't really be that stupid."

Although India is graduating so many employable engineers, overall only 7% of the population goes to college when the developed country average is at least twice that number. Most people see the benefits of education and thus want their kids to go to college. However the local education system is unable to expand rapidly and preserve quality at the same time, thus many colleges are shut down in the midst of a course or otherwise not permitted due to a lack of faculty and facilities. Further, even securing admission in a college in India is no guarantee of graduation because examinations are centralized at the University level and graduation rates vary dramatically based on the college attended.

Thus many parents with means prefer to send their children to schools abroad because education from a Tier 1 or 2 college abroad is better than a Tier 3 college in India, and should result in an employable graduate.

[paul]

Sid, et al.:

Your list doesn't really prove much. I couldn't find any numbers behind those names, and hence it's not really possible to see what the distribution is. It could be the case that PERM list numbers are not so concentrated at the top as they are in the H-1B list. where the first three companies sponsors ten times more employee than the companies below number 10 (just imagine how many petitions Infosys has filed to win the 4,559 approvals on the H-1B lottery, assuming all companies had equal chances)

Regardless of the numbers, my point is that the H-1B list shows how easy (statistically) it is for people from certain countries to obtain H-1B visas. Once you have an H-1B from Infosys, or Wipro, you can easily switch over to Oracle, IBM, or some other company after a few years (and hence explain the PERM list companies). Moreover, Oracle or IBM will prefer you because you just have to transfer the H-1B and not wait for a new quota. On the other hand, people from ROW are at a disadvantage because they only have a shot at one of the 300 H-1B petitions of Google, or Oracle, etc. (and they also have to compete with those previous Infosys H-1Bs that are already in the US and not subject to the H-1B quota). That's why there aren't so many people from ROW, and it is very difficult for them to come here -- not because they are stupid or don't want to come here. (Do you honestly believe that the whole EU, Russia, and other countries in Asia taken together produce so few engineers/programmers/etc. in comparison to India? After all, we're talking about countries that Indians flock to go to school to, so they can't really be that stupid.)

The EB country cap provides just a small relief to this situation, even though not much. If you remove the per-country cap, then you pretty much have Infosys and Wipro dictating US immigration policy. (Nothing wrong with that, if the US is OK with it, but it's a little bit disingenuous to talk about discrimination and unfairness.)

[Sid]

Paul, in case you think that I've cooked up the list, here's a link -

http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/pdf/PERM_Data_FY07_Announcement.pdf

[Sid]

Here's another list. The top sponsors of PERM for FY 2007 -
The EB2/EB3's from ICMP countries who are stuck in the EB backlog come from these companies, not the list that Paul has provided (the top H-1B sponsor list).

MICROSOFT CORPORATION
COGNIZANT TECHNOLOGY SOLUTIONS
ORACLE USA, INC.
INTEL CORPORATION
ERNST & YOUNG LLP
MOTOROLA, INC.
CISCO SYSTEMS, INC.
TEXAS INSTRUMENTS INCORPORATED
INFOSYS TECHNOLOGIES LIMITED
RAPIDIGM, INC.

[USC]

"And we know of course that the first few (Indian) companies hire employees from all over the world and give equal chance to everybody (no discrimination!), and their staff is fully diversified."

The nature of the software business is such that you want to hire those people for your US operation that are familiar with your software products. Guess where Infosys is going to find those employees? Pakistan?

This would also explain where most of the overseas hires for Toyota or Mercedes would be from Japan or Germany. No case for discrimination is made out simply by the fact that Infosys uses a large number of H1bs and that those are mostly from India.

"Oracle on the list, and tell me how many people and from where they sponsored wins a brownie point."

Hint: Oracle is on the list. And most of their H1bs are from India. Which disproves your point and proves mine.

[paul]

Uhm.. and can we keep the discussion civil and meaningful, or is that too much to ask for? Please use whatever kind of figures of speech you like to make your point, but at least try to make a point and defend an argument. Otherwise, the discussion gets pointless. (And yes, we all got the point about Lou Dobbs, but I don't really understand your fixation on him. Grow up and get over him.)

[paul]

1 Infosys Technologies 4,559
2 Wipro 2,567
3 Satyam Computer Services 1,396
4 Cognizant Tech Solutions 962
5 Microsoft 959
6 Tata Consultancy Services 797
7 Patni Computer Systems 477
8 US Technology Resources 416
9 I-Flex Solutions 374
10 Intel 369
11 Accenture 331
12 Cisco 324
13 Ernst & Young 302
14 Larsen & Toubro Infotech 292
15 Deloitte & Touche 283
16 Google 248
17 Mphasis Corporation 248
18 University Of Illinois At Chicago 246
19 American Unit 245
20 JSMN International 245

Need we say more? And we know of course that the first few (Indian) companies hire employees from all over the world and give equal chance to everybody (no discrimination!), and their staff is fully diversified. So clearly people from the rest of the world have equal chance to come here on an H-1B visa and pursue the green-card. The reason there aren't many from ROW is just that they are not as smart as the Indians. Of course!

(And the first person who can find Google, Cisco, and Oracle on the list, and tell me how many people and from where they sponsored wins a brownie point.) This list truly paints a picture of equal opportunity and non-discrimination. It would be a shame not to propagate this same fair and equitable pattern to the EB categories by removing the discriminatory per-country caps.

[Sound the sirens it's a LOU DOBBS fan!]

Yeah, nice one USC!

I guess wherever it is Paul comes from, they don't produce "engineers". Clearly they don't "spew" them either - which explain his delusions of grandeur and fright of competition :-)

[USC]

Italy to go back to its fascist past?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25432128/

[USC]

>>>>spewing out thousands of unemployable "engineers"<<<<

Your use of spewing and the placement of engineers in quotes is noteworthy and shows your state of mind. It is unnecessary to comment on the rest of your "spewing."

[Sound the sirens it's a LOU DOBBS fan!]

Folks,

We have a Dobbs clone here. Same language, same complaints. No evidence. The usual story, Let me in and I promise to close the gates behind.

[not that simple]

"All employment based categories except the EB3-Other workers category were current between June 2001 and September 2005. Thus people who applied in those 4 years made decisions based on bad information put out in the Visa Bulletin."

exactly!
all the while i trained here, there were no backlogs, at least none of substance. anyway why presume i have anything to do with "bodyshoppers"? or even that i am an engineer? i see only one spoilt child here paul- too bad that toy will eventually be taken away.

and i cannot blame "other citizens or my government". i came here as an individual as did you. i trained and got a job as "me" not as a generic indian. no one gave me a special position because of where i was born. so why does it matter what my countrymen are doing? my immigration application has nothing to do with them. comes back to the same thing...waaa waaa waa...mommy he's trying to take his toy back...i want it...i want it...

[BeeDee]

"You made your decision knowing full well what your category is like and decided to go ahead with it."

It is natural that a recent applicant might think like this. But this is fiction except for recent applicants in the retrogressed categories. All employment based categories except the EB3-Other workers category were current between June 2001 and September 2005. Thus people who applied in those 4 years made decisions based on bad information put out in the Visa Bulletin.

[kumar]

"I have my own category and you have your own category, and we are waiting in separate queues.
Posted by: paul | June 28, 2008 at 04:23 PM "

Haha! I drink your milkshake! I drink it up!

[paul]

>> The majority Chinese do not speak English

Obviously, you don't either...

>> Indians are at an advantage here b'cos of the language factor & of course they are smart.

Of course.

[Deb]

I work with Canadian cos. who have blanket TNs from Canada. No limits. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of Canadians working here who are not on H1B. Since they "walk and talk" American, they are usually out of the foreign worker/H1B focus.

[EB- india]

I have my own category and you have your own category, and we are waiting in separate queues.
Posted by: paul | June 28, 2008 at 04:23 PM
===========

Yeahh...you are in your god given separate category, the rest of your irrational outburst , entitlement rant should be ignored. Already lawmakers, fair minded Americans who run the show have realized how unfair the system is and some steps have been implemented, more on the way.

"Body shops", Indian companies "abusing" H1B should be dealt with separately. Most aplicants- MDs, Phds, faculty from India and China in EB-2 have nothing to do with these issues.

[matts]

The majority Chinese do not speak English, if they did US would have been steam rolled by the influx of Chinese talent on EB , Indians are at an advantage here b'cos of the language factor & of course they are smart. Why should a person be discriminated on the country of birth?

[kumar]

"Are these Indian companies too smart ? Why they happen to be top users of H1B as mentioned here ? WHy can't there be African, EU, etc companies here and beat down these Indian companies on 'who can supply the brighest person' for the job ?"

Obviously, because Indians are the smartest people in the world, while Africans are dumb, and Europeans are too lazy. It is a shame that the smartest doctors, engineers and mathematicians from India are discriminated against (especially in EB3 category)

[Kalifornian]

Are these Indian companies too smart ? Why they happen to be top users of H1B as mentioned here ? WHy can't there be African, EU, etc companies here and beat down these Indian companies on 'who can supply the brighest person' for the job ?

[matts]

Paul, call up Lou Dobbs for your few mins of fame & share your ridiculous views on his show.

[paul]

>> if the h1 law is broken or is simply not enforced, then...enforce it...or tweak it. none of that justifies country quotas in EB immigration. why should i wait 10 years for being born in the wrong country when others exactly like me are always current? i guess discrimination is ok if it benefits you.

That's right. You should argue for enforcing the law and stopping the abuse. If that happens, you won't have to wait 10 years.

Nobody is arguing for introducing quotas here. They are a part of the law since it was written to allow anybody here. There is no discrimination in this law since every country is given equal percentage. This is to ensure for diversity -- again part of the law for all immigration categories and types (not just family based immigration or the lottery), and that no political or socio-economic anomalies will cause one country to send disproportionately many immigrants.

If you feel "discriminated" against, you should blame people and companies from your own country who commit fraud (the body shops and people with fake 3-year degrees and false resumes who come to consult on H-1B visas and sit "benched" for months). Again these country caps have nothing to do with employment. You can work as much as you want and get extensions, and you can go home if you don't like it. The H-1B is temporary. Just because you want permanent residence real quick and it's not happening is not discrimination. (Should people in poor countries feel discriminated because there are other people in rich countries who have better life? It is not discrimination that you cannot go to any country and become a permanent resident. There are the rules. Deal with it!)

>> it comes down to this- because country quotas push you ahead in line and make someone else wait longer- you love them. tomorrow though, they will find some restrictions for you too- never fear...

You're getting this wrong. Country limits don't push me anywhere in the queue. I have my own category and you have your own category, and we are waiting in separate queues. This separation wouldn't be there at all if it were not for the excessively lopsided numbers of immigration from your category, which is due to unprecedented economic boom, universities spewing out thousands of unemployable "engineers" due to national economic policy to increase GDP by exporting labor, and fraudulent activity from numerous "consulting" firms. Blame the citizens of your own country and your own government for this.

On the other hand, if country limits are removed, this will unjustly increase my waiting time. I made a decision to apply and stay on this queue based on the number of people before me and my total waiting time. You made your decision knowing full well what your category is like and decided to go ahead with it. Now you suddenly decided you don't want to wait, and started crying like a small child how things are unfair. Well, tough! I don't want to wait more just because you changed your mind. I don't care what your reasons are and I don't care about you arguments. I didn't change my mind, and I don't want to wait more than what I signed up for. Especially when I know the real reason for your wait, which I told you before (-- and no, the reason is not because XYZ-ian are so smart and nobody else in the world can do the job they're doing.)

[not that simple]

btw paul, the whole argument about bodyshoppers (the lou and co. pov) is that they take jobs AWAY from america- they use the H1B as a method for outsourcing. so what does EB have to do with the bodyshoppers in that case?

it comes down to this- because country quotas push you ahead in line and make someone else wait longer- you love them. tomorrow though, they will find some restrictions for you too- never fear...

what was that about...when they came for the communists, i was silent because i wasn't one....familiar?

[Sid]

IMO, the more relevant statistics w.r.t. EB immigration is that the major filers of PERM are American companies like Microsoft, Intel, Cisco, Oracle & Google.

[not that simple]

i don't see why.
if the h1 law is broken or is simply not enforced, then...enforce it...or tweak it. none of that justifies country quotas in EB immigration. why should i wait 10 years for being born in the wrong country when others exactly like me are always current? i guess discrimination is ok if it benefits you.
btw the 8/10 statistic is misleading, you may wish to do your own research. 8 of the top 10 may be indian firms but they don't take the majority of the H1 visas available, simply because there are so many other firms getting visas. i guess Lou speaks to you when he strikes a personal cord..otherwise you won't believe him (when it does not suit you)....talk about selective hearing!

[George Chell]

"As much as I disagree with him, I think he is right about one thing --- 8 out of the top 10 H-1B sponsoring companies are Indian consulting companies and body-shops."

Evidence please on 8 out of 10.

[paul]

As much as I disagree with him, I think he is right about one thing --- 8 out of the top 10 H-1B sponsoring companies are Indian consulting companies and body-shops. I hope lawmakers will keep that in mind if they ever decide to consider proposals for removing EB immigration per-country caps.

[Dan]

I wonder where did Lou get the title "No American need apply". That is already putting bias into the report.

[disgusted]

I don't believe in any religion but I wish I do. Lou will and should rot in pure hell. What an A.H! He has no shame, no sense of proportion, no fairness.

[George Chell]

If Americans do as lousy a job as all those bankers and air line industry executives perhaps no American need apply or even if they apply they should not be hired.