SENATORS THINK WORKERS ARE WIDGETS

When I was in law school at the University of Chicago, our economics-oriented professors would often refer to "widgets" when they needed to refer to an unnamed manufactured object. A widget is really an "any object" that is interchangeable with other widgets. The idea is that you can focus on broader economic principles if you can keep the student from focusing on the particulars of a given industry. 

And despite a stated concern for workers, Senators Bernie Sanders (I-VT) and Charles Grassley (R-IA) really think of workers as widgets - interchangeable cogs in the world of business. They are proposing the Employ America Act which seeks to bar employers that have had layoffs from being able to file H-1Bs even if a needed H-1B employee is in a field completely different than the occupation of laid off workers and even if a company only employs a very tiny percentage of H-1Bs in its workforce. This is a sledgehammer approach to immigration policy and is simply protectionism that would likely constitute a violation of the General Agreement on Trade in Services. If it passed, it could land the US in the world trade court.

Workers are NOT widgets and to say that any person can basically replace any other person really insults the dignity of the American worker.

grassley letter -

Comments

[q]

Joe and Jane weren't replaced by H-1Bs because they couldn't do the job. They were replaced by a system of high skill contingent labor, more developed in some professions than in others, that provides a sort of "side door" to bring in foreign workers. Before the foreign workers found out about the side door, the high skill contingent labor industry used to hire Americans. I know about this because I am one of the Americans who, for a while, worked as high skill labor on temporary contract terms through these firms. Back then they were American firms, and the pay was great. So was the treatment of workers. Nowadays the firms are mainly foreign body shops, and there are many layers of them, contracting and subcontracting down the line. I was amazed back then at how easy it was to get work. I could easily find myself working in a trusted position at a famous company, whereas if I'd tried to come in through the front door as a "permanent" employee I'd be cross-examined and grilled and perhaps screened out by the internal politics. This is the process that the H-1B has hijacked. This is how most of them got in. The notion that American companies are hiring them because they are better is pure nonsense. I was sharp, bright and energetic, but not better than the permanent workers I was working with. Then somebody got the idea to replace the Americans and bypass hiring them. Now America produces far more native STEM grads than it creates jobs for. The foreign students get hired on OPT, the native students go begging. That ain't right. Ironically, the contracting firm often bills the company far more than the company would have to pay a permanent local worker. The contract worker now gets a smaller cut than they used to, sometimes very small judging from some job postings at these bodyshops. So, the companies don't really save money, and the workers get stiffed on pay. The middle man cleans up. Good for America? Probably not. Bring on the H-1B audits.

[S]

"I was at a conference the other day and I sat up suddenly when one of the speakers, a high powered executive, started talking about short term contract workers from vendors abroad. He pointedly stated that workers from India were much admired because of the work ethic they brought in, and the local teams learnt much from them. Incidentally, they were talking about IS workers. I wonder why people on this blog always claim the opposite finding? Or, to get back to my original point, is this sheer envy of another's success?"

Antis in blogs claim that people on h1b are mediocre at the best and they are replacing bright locals , How can that is possible , mediocre foreign workers replacing bright local workers?

[LFWF]

I was at a conference the other day and I sat up suddenly when one of the speakers, a high powered executive, started talking about short term contract workers from vendors abroad. He pointedly stated that workers from India were much admired because of the work ethic they brought in, and the local teams learnt much from them. Incidentally, they were talking about IS workers. I wonder why people on this blog always claim the opposite finding? Or, to get back to my original point, is this sheer envy of another's success?

[S]

"Joe and Jane will probably just lose their hair dressing and table waiting jobs."

Or selling cars , been to a BMW dealership recently . None of the people I came across there are on H1B.

[LFWF]

"Here's another one: more foreign students for Colorado's state subsidized universities"

This is seems to pretend that the subsidy is for the foreign students. In fact they are providing the subsidy right now or do you not realize that?

[LFWF]

You don't seem to understand the stories you read.

Once they exclude foreign students from the cap, it frees the cap to include more out of state AMERICAN students. Universities do not care if the full paying students are Americans of foreigners. They need the money. They would happily use the extra room created in the cap to take in more out of state Americans who will pay the full tuition, as they already have in many states. It is easier on them in fact, since they do not have to deal with visas etc. So, this is not an issue about foreign students even if your local press wants to make it that way. It is about getting more full paying students- who are much more likely to be Americans, and a few extra foreiners, yes. Similar strategies are at work, in different ways, across the country. Many states have started prefering out of state students over in state ones in order to survive. THAT is the real issue, not foreigners. If you want to get more CO students in, deal with the finances and your universities will readily and happily take your kids. If you stop their out of state enrollment and refuse extra revenue, they will simply collapse, which menas laying off more people btw. The choices are available.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"Too bad Main Street, with Joe and Jane American, will not be on your side. We can't just keep paying people not to work, sending jobs overseas, buying foreign goods, and bypassing local job applicants to bring in foreigners on various visas."

Joe and Jane American need to improve their work skills, and then they will be able to produce something wanted - wanted in the US and in other countries. Anna and Dietrich German can, but Joe and Jane just complain about competition. Right now, Joe in Jane are only fit to cut hair and wait on those "foreigners on various visas". If your plan is to send the foreigners home... well, Joe and Jane will probably just lose their hair dressing and table waiting jobs.

[q]

Here's another one: more foreign students for Colorado's state subsidized universities: http://www.dailycamera.com/cu-news/ci_13803406

[S]

Isn't that your crowd that preached across the globe that globalization is good and how not to be protectionist ? Isn't that your globalization/free trader crowd that lectured policy makers across the globe that government helping poor people and farmers is a bad idea? Isn't the world bank and IMF that still controls most of the third world policy makers?

"and laws passed"

Dont worry , I will leave when laws make me illegal or even before your president signs that bill into law.

"We don't need the H-1B or L-1s"

You can lobby and pass laws to throw out all h-1bs and L1s, Good luck with that .

[S]

"Bruce Benson " Name does not sound indian for me. Its not indians who issue visas at consultates too ,most probably it will be people who look like you and talk like you. If you have any problem with Indians get over with or deal with it.

Yes CO has elected people like Tancredo and Musgrave , both of them are bigots of first order.

[q]

Here is a specific reference to the news we saw:

"University of Colorado President Bruce Benson wants to exclude international students from his state's cap on non-Coloradans."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/13/AR2009111301940.html?hpid=topnews

[q]

The news stories I read specifically mentioned foreign students. Not that it matters. The tempers rising here tell clearly who has an agenda. Too bad Main Street, with Joe and Jane American, will not be on your side. We can't just keep paying people not to work, sending jobs overseas, buying foreign goods, and bypassing local job applicants to bring in foreigners on various visas. We can do some of that, but we have clearly been doing way too much and need to throttle backk hard. Every other nation in the world is protectionistic. Time for us to rethink the economic policies of the last few decades. Yes, some folks will be disappointed. But the survival of our nation can't happen with Americans on the dole, fighting wars, and not making or doing things here at home. Most of America is waking up to that, and you will see an outcry, and laws passed, that you will not like. Oh well.

[LFWF]

Q:

Enough of your tirades.
If 80% of the US population is born here, why are the majority of nobel laureates foreign born? Please read the nespaper if you don't know. It's a good habit to step away from FOX occasionaly.

As for foreign docs, you have no idea do you? Check the statistics please, I am tired of saying this to you. Just because you think something does not make it true. Everyone, including the AMA, ACP, AAMC and other physician bodies that are not exactly "pro immigrant" have positions appreciating the role of foreign physicians and supporting programs that allow US trained doctors to stay. Please stick to IT and don't extend your gibberish to fields you know even less about. How about you spend some energy finding out what percent of US docs currently are foreign born? The answer might shock you, although as pointed out earlier, delusions cannot be cured with facts. When (and the big IF) you do chsck, remember the coming baby boomer explosion and look up the projected physician shortage within a decade. Pray tell us your plans to solve it without foreign born doctors.

You have misled us about the CO university admission cap proposals. While it is true that the proposal asks that foreign students not be counted against the out of state cap, the central purpose is to increase room for OUT OF STATE and FULL PAYING AMERICANS, not foreigners. This is also the policy every other state is currently pursuing- out of state students and survival. Making this into an anti foreigner issue is patently ridiculous. Of course even if you stopped more foregners, other Americans would take the places, so your fight really is for CO exclusivity. You have lost any remaining credibility with the central theme of your rant exposed as xenophobic.

[q]

Go ahead and make bizarre accusations about Colorado (which has a large Hispanic population and also a significant black middle class with historic roots in Denver), but the notion that we will all die without foreign doctors is just so silly that I have to stop and laugh. Get over yourselves! Who taught our kids, xrayed our chests, wrote our code, designed our bridges, and so on before the H-1B program got ramped up at the end of the 90s? Over 80% of current American citizens were born here. Once upon a time we were a "nation of immigrants" and Emma Lazarus was a poet, not the author of the Constitution. That was then, this is now. We don't need the H-1B or L-1s, and if we don't drastically cut or limit these programs now that Americans need the jobs, we will only prove the Indians' accusation, that we really are bad at "maths."

[S]

"the spread of broadband to "rural" areas"

I thought you have a perfect system and infrastructure...

[George Chell]

"Yes it will get lot bumpier not for H1b workers but people like you. Lot of H1b workers will go somewhere else and when they move , they take the jobs with them."

I dont think antis care much if the jobs move abroad..they just dont want non-whites in their area..Tancredo's Sixth District is one such area.

"You can have you gun and hunt moose in alaska or deer in Colorado."

Why do you think they want to preserve their second amendment rights..this is of atmost concern even compared to H1B1s... Obama taking away their gun rights!

[George Chell]

"Bashing Indians will expose your own racism and will not help your cause if you have any other than ethnic cleansing."

Having travelled extensively in Colorado..all through Tancredo's old district..Littleton, Pine, Conifer, Evergreen, Bergen Park (home of the rabid anti-immigrant Janice Heron), Lone Tree, Centennial, Highlands Ranch, Castle Rock, Simla and Bailey (home where a deranged white gunman tried to line up white school girls to execute them back in 2006)...I am not very surprised. Bailey is particularly anti-immigrant defined as anti-Hispanic or anti-Asian..a Chinese woman from SE Asia passing through there complained about this white guy calling her racial epithets two days before the school shooting, but the police turned the other way!

[LFWF]

q has this funny idea that anyone of Indian origin must be rooting for American to lose jobs and be replaced by "Indians" which is the euphism for foreigners. This stems from the presumption that "Indians" hate Americans...amusing thought, given that we are all waiting to become "American" :-)

q..FYI...if anything holds me back from being "American" and fully invested in this economy, it is the interminable wait for a green card. I spent over a decade here and have done everything by the book. If you want immigrants to integrate and all that, support the easing of this backlog. That in turn will also insure taht many workers do not spend long periods on an H1B and be thus constrained for job mobility, salary and promotions...which is exactly the reason they may seem "lowly paid" to you. It would help incraese IT salaries since that is all you care about. But you won't (my presumtion this time) because in the end, you have shown your visceral hatred for "Indians" and that matters more to you than the real issues.

[S]

"It is because of your ahem...weak grasp of the real world that I am amused by your tall claims. Nothing to do with America/India/dollars/rupees/elections etc or even your overt hatred for my origins. Still, I hope you succeed and do many others."

These are set of people that hate any one who is different from them(could be sex , sexual orientation , language , religion , national origin). No amount of good logic will ever change them.

Somehow they think bashing of Indians will land them a job, I am not sure how they can succeed in work envioronments with this kind of hatred in their minds towards their coworkers and their origins. Dont blame Indians for you job loss or outsourcing, blame your white CEO, they are the ones who make these decisions.

Bashing Indians will expose your own racism and will not help your cause if you have any other than ethnic cleansing.

[T]

"Go ahead and make fun, but the equation that favors Indian workers is changing fast. Keep your eye on US salaries, the availability of US talent at affordable salaries (the major factor that kicked off the foreign fad), the spread of broadband to "rural" areas, the dollar/rupee exchange rate, and so on. The vast majority of H-1Bs are ordinary workers at best, and their advantages and the reasons for pursuing them are fading, even as their reputation spreads. Just as a wave crests, so do management fads, and this sure was one. Yes, we'll see a lot of them around for a while longer, but does anyone think the idea of bringing in more foreigners now that the unemployment rate is over 10% will be anything other than radioactive and career-killing for any politician, even those who formerly favored it or looked the other way? H-1Bs don't (legally) vote in American elections, and neither do workers in India. Lobbying firms will only get you so far once the cat is out of the bag. Back in 2000-2002, it was mostly techies getting axed, but now it's everyone. Back then hardly any American knew what an H-1B was or how outsourcing worked, now almost all them do. The world has changed, and if it flattened before, it is about to get bumpier. Change doesn't only go in India's favor. History shows that, and will probably show it again fairly soon. American lawyers who are banking on foreign workers might even consider switching sides. "

If things are turning in your favor, why still moan and complain? Just wait for your turn....

[LFWF]

"Go ahead and make fun, but the equation that favors Indian workers is changing fast."

What makes you think I care? Your insistence on focussing one one national/ethnic group is simply stunning. You seem more bothered about Indians being kept out than about your own welfare. Please look up "racism" in a dictionary. It will be educative.

I am a pragmatist. I live in America. Even with all the stupid delays (upto a decade) in the immigration proccess, I will be an LPR and eventually a citizen. My kids are American. I care about what happens here and what happens to workers, jobs and the economy. In your simplistic world I should be some lazy cheating Indian, well whatever the case maybe, everything I do actually benefits America. Beyond any notions of race and nationality I care about my kids future (and mine). If immigration is harmful- it harms my family. If it is helpful, it helps us. Whether you like it or not we are de facto Americans already and our futures are tied to the success of this country. Shutting doors will harm us, so I don't believe in it. As I said before I have serious issues with admitting kids to college just because they are rich. If I had the option, I would vote against the lifting of the University cap taht you are railing about - AND then be prepared to pay higher tuition and taxes. YOU, on the other hand want the cake each and every way. No high paying outsiders and no increased tuition/taxes.

As I told you before (you said something about comprehension?) I am not in IT. In my industry these things are irrelevant. My work has nothing to do with India and everything to do with keeping America at the cutting edge. Once again and read slowly please, all (even most) foreign workers/guest workers/H1B workers are not in IT and are not from India. There are many industries that need highly skilled workers. They pay handsomely too. The far greater danger with these industries is their expansion of operations OUTSIDE the US. They do not rely on foreign workers in America (they recruit them though, based on need) but they are fast moving new operations and high skill, high paying jobs to India, Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia etc. If that continues, we will all live in this economy forever. The more you shut doors here, the faster that will be reality.

Also I am fully aware of how the world changes. This is not a surprise to me, as it seems to be to you. as for your politicians being elcted, populism will be the death of us all. I hope people will think for change and not go back to hating educated leaders in favor of blind crusaders.

It is because of your ahem...weak grasp of the real world that I am amused by your tall claims. Nothing to do with America/India/dollars/rupees/elections etc or even your overt hatred for my origins. Still, I hope you succeed and do many others.

[T]

"it is about to get bumpier"

Yes it will get lot bumpier not for H1b workers but people like you. Lot of H1b workers will go somewhere else and when they move , they take the jobs with them. You can have you gun and hunt moose in alaska or deer in Colorado.

[George Chell]

This is what happens to countries that have relatively open skilled immigration policies....

http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/sub/latest/story/0,4574,359352,00.html

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1013065/1/.html

[George Chell]

Should modify comment 142. Actually, what will be even more career-killing for a politician would be a H1N1 pandemic and shortage of doctors and nurses in rural areas (aggravated by the unions) results in a lot of American deaths, particularly white American deaths..I think right now Americans are more concerned about H1N1 than H1B1. In 12 months the number of H1N1 cases in the US (between March 2009 and March 2010) will approach 100,000, a tad higher than the numbers admitted in H1B1. But, then again, I do agree that there are a lot of racists particularly in Georgia, Alabama, and other parts of the South who would rather die than be treated by a non-white doctor or a non-white nurse!

[George Chell]

"You seem to be overly concerned for the people of Indian origin. You seem to forget that half of H1Bs are not from India. The chip on your shoulder is showing."

I think he lives in the sixth district..they are very anti-Asian, particularly anti-Indian and anti-Chinese. Many of them ran from Asians in California. No wonder Tancredo thrives in such an atmosphere.

[George Chell]

"Yes, we'll see a lot of them around for a while longer, but does anyone think the idea of bringing in more foreigners now that the unemployment rate is over 10% will be anything other than radioactive and career-killing for any politician, even those who formerly favored it or looked the other way?"

What will be career-killing would high unemployment rates persisting for a long time, as jobs move abroad, tax revenues drop and then we end up borrowing from China and perhaps India at even higher rates, accompanied by draconian cuts in Social Security and Medicare!

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"H-1Bs don't (legally) vote in American elections, and neither do workers in India."

You seem to be overly concerned for the people of Indian origin. You seem to forget that half of H1Bs are not from India. The chip on your shoulder is showing.

[q]

Go ahead and make fun, but the equation that favors Indian workers is changing fast. Keep your eye on US salaries, the availability of US talent at affordable salaries (the major factor that kicked off the foreign fad), the spread of broadband to "rural" areas, the dollar/rupee exchange rate, and so on. The vast majority of H-1Bs are ordinary workers at best, and their advantages and the reasons for pursuing them are fading, even as their reputation spreads. Just as a wave crests, so do management fads, and this sure was one. Yes, we'll see a lot of them around for a while longer, but does anyone think the idea of bringing in more foreigners now that the unemployment rate is over 10% will be anything other than radioactive and career-killing for any politician, even those who formerly favored it or looked the other way? H-1Bs don't (legally) vote in American elections, and neither do workers in India. Lobbying firms will only get you so far once the cat is out of the bag. Back in 2000-2002, it was mostly techies getting axed, but now it's everyone. Back then hardly any American knew what an H-1B was or how outsourcing worked, now almost all them do. The world has changed, and if it flattened before, it is about to get bumpier. Change doesn't only go in India's favor. History shows that, and will probably show it again fairly soon. American lawyers who are banking on foreign workers might even consider switching sides.

[George Chell]

"If anyone is interested in a formal debate on H-1b/L1 visa policy let me know (relawson at sdsflorida.com)."

H1Bs keep the job in America..alternative even worse body shops and jobs go abroad!

[George Chell]

"How about Musgrave and Tancredo , I thought they like tax cuts too.."

I think both of them want to destroy education and the state universities in Colorado.

[LFWF]

"Again, the reading comprehension skills issue."

Actually we are just amused by your claims. A little incredulous too maybe! See you on Forbes! May you resolve the whole recession, debt et al, go forth, we are with you :-))))))

[Hello Again (Roy)]

"So ROY? How do we have a discussion, when this is the baseline at which it begins? "

I found an interesting online debate platform that may fit the bill. The goal is to establish and formally debate facts, as opposed to engaging in a back in forth: http://debategraph.org/

If anyone is interested in a formal debate on H-1b/L1 visa policy let me know (relawson at sdsflorida.com). Here is the description:

(1) A wiki debate visualization tool that lets you:
present the strongest case on any debate that matters to you;
openly engage the opposing arguments;
create and reshape debates, make new points, rate and filter the arguments;
monitor the evolution of debates via RSS feeds; and,
share and reuse the debates on and offline;

(2) A web-based, creative commons project to increase the transparency and rigor of public debate everywhere—by making the collective insight and intelligence of the global community freely available to all and filtering out the noise.
Every debate map is provisional and open to iterative improvement by anyone who participates.

Over time, the debate maps will mature into the definitive articulations of each debate.

Every change you make—whether correcting a text, adding a new argument, or starting a new debate—contributes towards the fulfilment of this social promise.

So be bold as a first time visitor—and safe in the knowledge that a full editing history provides a safety net.

[LFWF]

Wow, you really are scared of India Inc aren't you!
Good for you! You should be :-)

[q]

Again, the reading comprehension skills issue. What makes anyone here think I'm not trying to start a company and employ locals, as many people here want to do and ARE doing? But then, why would I tell the people HERE about it? You'll read about it in Forbes when it's too late for India, Inc. to block it or take it over.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

q, well, there goes your theory that it was "years of tax payments" by the parents that paid for the education subsidies. Turns out, not so much.

[T]

How about Musgrave and Tancredo , I thought they like tax cuts too..

[George Chell]

One more thing..if you borrow money, the creditor dictates terms..which means more Chinese students in US state schools. A nation nose deep in debt has lost its sovereignty!

[George Chell]

"Where did it ever say that locals wanted cuts to Colorado education?"

Did not they elect Governor Owens who enacted the largest tax cuts in the state history and re-elect him again? Did you forget TABOR? When you vote for tax cuts, you are voting for budget cuts..and there are no tax cuts which American people including the citizens of Colorado did not like. Sure TABOR was suspended, but by the time they did it in 2006, the damage was done and it has been made worse due to recession. It is a zero sum game..if you want tax cuts there will be less public money for education..which means schools have to raise money elsewhere including increasing the proportion of foreign students. It is a crying shame that it has to come to this. But, the people of Colorado have to ask themselves what put them in this predicament: Tax cuts! Tax cuts! Tax cuts!! and following the right wingers at the Independence Institute blindly. Now less government they will get, which means dont expect the universities to give you first priority!

[back to work]

"The answer is to get the locals back to work"

Then why dont you innovate and start a company and put "locals" to work? Or Are you expecting Obama to give you a job in government?

[A]

"Tax revenues declined because people lost their jobs"

People("locals" and "aliens") lost their jobs because of the economy collapsed. Why economy collapsed , here is one reason

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/12/byron-dorgans-financial-p_n_355659.html

Exactly 10 years ago your own congress repealed the laws that were supposed to protect the economy. Put your xenophobia aside for a while and read.

[q]

Again the problem with reading comprehension. Where did it ever say that locals wanted cuts to Colorado education? I happen to know there are petitions going around now that oppose cuts. The cuts came because tax revenues declined. Tax revenues declined because people lost their jobs. What's voluntary about that? Where's the choice there? The answer is to get the locals back to work, and the tax revenues will become healthier again. Not to sell off the ranch and the seed corn to the highest bidder.

[Greg Siskind]

Racist statements are not permitted here. If someone spots one, please point out the poster and the time of the post (there are more than 100 comments so far on this thread) and I will deal with removing the person's posting ability.

[George Chell]

"Universities and employers in places like Singapore and Australia are benefitting big."

Universities and employers (INCLUDING US BASED EMPLOYERS WHO CANNOT HIRE FOREIGNERS HERE) in places like Singapoe and Australia are benefitting big. For some reason the fact that in this global economy an US employer does not have to hire Americans even if foreigners are kept out is lost on a lot of deluded fellow nationals! Then again it is also lost on many deluded antis all across the world!

[LFWF]

Internship flood for IIM students

http://www.hindustantimes.com/IIM-internships-soar-in-season-of-turnaround/H1-Article1-475850.aspx

"High-profile recruiters included Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, The Royal Bank of Scotland and Standard Chartered"

hey q,

time to suck it up. people are going back to work. just not in your lost paradise.

[Ugly]

Here is a link where you can see the ugly side of your own society. You can say whatever you want to under free speech but the message is very clear on some in your own soceity treat minorities. I bet these images are not created by H1Bs to put down minorities.. Every soceity has its ugly side ...

http://photobucket.com/images/anti%20obama/

[George Chell]

"Nobody said "No foreign students" just "No free-for-all to the highest bidder. Allow foreigners to elbow out local students, in a system the locals have been supporting since 1876, just because they have big fat bankrolls? I don't think so."

Then pay up. Locals have been supporting since 1876, but as I showed you evidence which you chose to ignore, the locals made a choice..they wanted tax cuts, not higher education. The choice is there for you to make. Next time campaign against tax cuts and support higher budget for higher education..then there will be more local students. You cannot have your cake and eat it too! End of story. Which part of economics dont you understand..everyone including the universities are fighting to survive!

[S]

"H1b indentured workers" putting down "Slave masters" that sounds like an oxymoron to me? Isn't that what you said about Sotomayor too?

[S]

"That's how they work the caste system over there. They deny people education, water for cleanliness, adequate nutrition, then point to their inferiority and uncleanliness. Now they are here trying to do the same to us. They are talking to us here the way they speak to Dalits. It's a put-down war. You think we're racists towards them? How about their views of us? "

Ask any black or native american about putting down.

[Why?]

Don't worry q. Interest in America is dropping rapidly. Educated foreiners are making educated choices. Universities and employers in places like Singapore and Australia are benefitting big. And their economies are growing. You will have your wish. You may regret rotting in it though.

Greg: Is is permissible on your blog to single out and condemn a single ethnic group in this manner? How exactly is this not racist? Is this a blog about foreign cultures and their "shortcomings"?

[LFWF]

"You brought it up."

No. You brought it up. And you are still at it. What does the question of CO budgets and their policy of filling shortfalls with foreign students have to do with the caste system? When you bring those things up, it shows the bankruptcy of your ideas. And it makes it legitimate to ask how your minorities fare in education and public health, how your income is distributed and how you treat those that happen to be different. Look it up. It is your history and your statistics.

As for India, she has been independent all of 62 years. Despite that the growth surpasses America. The progress is faster than in the first 60 years of America's life. There are more jobs, more growth and more interest from YOUR industries. Go check it. You can revel all you want in your current life expectancy but you spend so much for the few extra years that you are bankrupt. AND that brings us back to the original discussion- it is also why you are moaning here about CO universities.

I have NO interest in this stupid discussion and your ignorant ideas about people and their cultures. This kind of ignorance and insularity is the reason that foreigners laugh at Americans - and we are not talking about Indians either - try your "allies" in Europe for a change. You want a reason for the "dumb American" stereotype? Won't have to look far.

For the record, I hate the idea of admitting rich kids (from anywhere- you think it does not happen for Americans?) for no reason other than money. But at the moment, the choices are stark. Feel free to defeat the proposal. Be ready for the consequences. The choice is available.

[Perfect System]

"Nobody said "No foreign students" just "No free-for-all to the highest bidder. Allow foreigners to elbow out local students, in a system the locals have been supporting since 1876, just because they have big fat bankrolls? I don't think so.

And for whoever said, "I guess at this point we should start talking about lynching, the massacres of native Americans, the KKK, skinheads, macaca, IT grunt and all those that must represent you and your world view. How dare you? What do you know about the world anyway? Want to see filth? Plenty of places in your neighborhood qualify. But your own head, that's closest." that's just what's in YOUR head. You brought it up. But as long as we are mentioning filth, let's talk about the state of plumbing and public sanitation, including the disposal of the dead, in each society. Let's talk about which country does more in terms of universal primary public education, and literacy rates. Let's talk about life expentancy, which is one measure of public health. If they're so successful over here, we need to ask why, since their homeland is in such a state.
"

What is your complaint if you have such a perfect system? Why only 1876 , what about the natives that were killed before 1876?

[q]

Nobody said "No foreign students" just "No free-for-all to the highest bidder. Allow foreigners to elbow out local students, in a system the locals have been supporting since 1876, just because they have big fat bankrolls? I don't think so.

And for whoever said, "I guess at this point we should start talking about lynching, the massacres of native Americans, the KKK, skinheads, macaca, IT grunt and all those that must represent you and your world view. How dare you? What do you know about the world anyway? Want to see filth? Plenty of places in your neighborhood qualify. But your own head, that's closest." that's just what's in YOUR head. You brought it up. But as long as we are mentioning filth, let's talk about the state of plumbing and public sanitation, including the disposal of the dead, in each society. Let's talk about which country does more in terms of universal primary public education, and literacy rates. Let's talk about life expentancy, which is one measure of public health. If they're so successful over here, we need to ask why, since their homeland is in such a state.

[LFWF]

"That's how they work the caste system over there. They deny people education, water for cleanliness, adequate nutrition, then point to their inferiority and uncleanliness. Now they are here trying to do the same to us. They are talking to us here the way they speak to Dalits. It's a put-down war. You think we're racists towards them? How about their views of us? "

I guess at this point we should start talking about lynching, the massacres of native Americans, the KKK, skinheads, macaca, IT grunt and all those that must represent you and your world view. How dare you? What do you know about the world anyway? Want to see filth? Plenty of places in your neighborhood qualify. But your own head, that's closest.

So ROY? How do we have a discussion, when this is the baseline at which it begins? Why this denigration of 20% of the world's people? People who have frankly proved to be one of the most successful ethnic/minority groups in THIS country. It's a war against the most educated and the highest earning national or ethnic group in America. Is it jealousy? I really think that has to be it.

You think you do not have your own "caste system"? Visit a housing project. Or a community clinic. or the lower 9th ward that was left to drown. I have seen it close up. You need to leave your lovely cocoon and open your eyes.

[LFWF]

"To withhold such practical education from citizens in order to chase foreign dollars would violate and end the mission of a land grant college."

And does that tell you just how desperate they are? Surely they live in CO and their kids are educated there or need education? Why are they shooting themselvs in the foot??
Please think for a momemt. Let's say that they don't take in any more foreign students. Then they don't get the extra money and they don't meet operating costs. Now they ahve to cut admissions- and who do you think would be cut?
Let's say they reduce the number of full tution paying students (foreigner and out of stste since your argumnet is that CO citizens are funding), how would the finances look? Who would pay? Would admission numbers for CU students go up or down?

Think through what you say. If you have problems with the policy, ask the officials for reasons. Present alternatives. Unfortunately, short of more money there aren't any. Ready for more taxes...of course not...that's a given huh?

It's not that your angst over admission cuts and budget cuts is not legitimate. I would feel the same way- and I do. It's just that your solutions make things even worse.

[LFWF]

"And my message is nearly the same as it was 5 years ago. I think we should welcome immigrants into our country, not indentured servants. Immigration should not subsidize or target specific industries, and immigrants should not be put through a gauntlet and insane buracracy in order to come here. But on the other side, immigration must be mindful of the labor force and not be disruptive to that.

As far as the anti-immigrant rhetoric, I don't find it helpful to the issue. I wish it would stop. Hate the policy, not the victims (or in some cases beneficiaries) of the policy. The same thing goes for anti-American rhetoric. There is a lot of that out there also. It all needs to stop because we can't debate complex subjects when it is mixed with fear and hatred.
"

Broadly speaking, I can't disagree with much of that.
Note though that the "painting with a brush" of Indians as somehow unskilled, lazy, cheats and inferior was started here by candelario. The discussion had no anti American slant and frankly since many of us have been here a decade or more and have American kids, we have no will or need to have such views.
In any dictionary the coloring of one national group in this matter would be racism. But of course, these holier than thou people don't think they are anything but broad minded.
Read the comments from q. Instead of a legitimate argument on how to sabe CO schools while admitting locals, it is all about foreigners who flunk out or how they will "grow up" and consider Americans inferior. This is all presumption of cousre, but the message is completely anti-foreigner. Do immigrants bring nothing of value Roy? Is it not the desperation of CO schools that drives this recruitment? Who does the extra money support?

I am all for a civil discussion but how is it possible when my country and country men are being denigrated like this. What is the need for bringing up someone's caste? And why si it ok to do that and then whine when it's throwm back at "native" faces?

[George Chell]

"Also, foreign students spend $1.5 billion a year to study here. That may seem like chump change, but its making the difference in schools that are teetering on the edge of financial ruin."

What irritates me is the sense of entitlement. Give us the services whether we pay for it or not! That is why we are nose deep in debt. To the citizens of Colorado..I have a simple solution..next time when there is a referendum for tax roll back and it will come as soon as 2012 vote against it..fully fund your schools and in return priority will be give to the local students.

[George Chell]

"Something HAS changed."

Yes. lack of revenues!

[Greg Siskind]

Also, foreign students spend $1.5 billion a year to study here. That may seem like chump change, but its making the difference in schools that are teetering on the edge of financial ruin.

[Indy]

"Something HAS changed. The numbers of foreign students are increasing, and its not because we aren't applying to college, In fact, a recent study showed that America is producing far more citizen STEM graduates than it generates jobs for. And now, state higher education officials in Colorado are lobbying to remove any restriction whatsover on the percentage of foreign enrollments. Universities maintain a profile of admissions that they try for, to encourage the right sort of academic and social mix. They are trying to change that in Colorado. It was in the local news just last week. "

Even if that is the case , why blame immigrants or foreign students for that? its your own people trying to craft a policy that saves either them or the institutions that they work for . Your own people are making policies not foreign students.

[Greg Siskind]

Also, foreign students spend $1.5 billion a year to study here. That may seem like chump change to you, but its making the difference in schools that are teetering on the edge of financial ruin.

[Greg Siskind]

The numbers are still below the pre-9/11 era. Check your facts.

[q]

Something HAS changed. The numbers of foreign students are increasing, and its not because we aren't applying to college, In fact, a recent study showed that America is producing far more citizen STEM graduates than it generates jobs for. And now, state higher education officials in Colorado are lobbying to remove any restriction whatsover on the percentage of foreign enrollments. Universities maintain a profile of admissions that they try for, to encourage the right sort of academic and social mix. They are trying to change that in Colorado. It was in the local news just last week.

[Greg Siskind]

q - State universities have heavily recruited foreign students for decades so trying to act like this is a new trend is disingenuous. There are many reasons for the heavy recruitment - foreign students pay the full ticket and subsidize American kids, they frequently help to fill out departments that have suffered while everyone goes to get a law degree or MBA, they help improve standards and can help universities live up to their claims of being "world class", etc. To say that something has changed in response to the unemployment rate really ignores a trend that started after World War II.

[George Chell]

I am all for retraining Americans and admitting Americans even in private schools..but Americans need to pay up instead of running to get a tax cut everytime a referendum rolls around. As far as I know, there is not one tax cut, that Americans dont dislike..and then they borrow money from abroad, and when the Chinese show up with their millions to subsidize a Colorado state school in a financial bind, they whine like q and say university is a public good, and Americans should be admitted with low fees, not because they paid for it, but because they were born in the territory!

Two days ago the DC sniper was executed in VA. During his appeal one of the relatives of the victims said that he should have thought about the consequences when he committed his crime. Absolutely right. Americans, and the citizens of Colorado should have thought about the consequences when they voted themselves tax cuts when times were good! Now it is time to face the consequences! It is like being on a death row!

[George Chell]

"Exactly , People take out lot more out medicare than they pay in and blame immigrants for shortfall rather than realizing the fact that people are living longer."

Without immigrants the hole will be much larger as these jobs would be in Singapore and US will loose the revenue.

[George Chell]

"That sounds like what your Joe the "plumber" called "socialism" and your own Tancredo and Musgrave will agree with that. Now that your "socialist" Obama is in power why dont you ask him to deport all the Gujjus and Gultis .."

More like Marxist-Lenninist ideology. I always suspected that Tancredo and people like Rep. Steve King and former Rep Duncan Hunter were not racists but closet commie pinkos! There are a few hard core racists though in the congress...Michelle Bachman sounds like one, Marsha Blackburn is another candidate, Lynn Westmoreland and Nathan Deal definitely belong to this category.

[George Chell]

"Your options are 1) increase state taxes to fund education 2) increase in-state tuition to pay fairer share of expenses 3) increase the number of out of state students to subsidize in-state tuition. There are no other options."

Americans wanting to have their cake and eat it too is the BIGGEST problem we face at the federal level..that is why we have a massive budget deficit. At the state level they cannot run deficits..the citizens of Colorado need to forget tax cuts if they want a better education..or there is one alternative...hike the fees paid by local students to the level that out of state students pay. q wants to get everything for free..nothing is for free..someone always pays. If you dont like foreign students paying higher tuition, why dont the in-state students pay.

[Indy]

"Just like saying that you want your Medicare bills paid out of your contributions over the years ;-) So friggin naive..."

Exactly , People take out lot more out medicare than they pay in and blame immigrants for shortfall rather than realizing the fact that people are living longer.

[George Chell]

"No it's not the bottom line. The bottom line is to get Americans back to work. Not unemployment, not underemployment, not the dole. Then, like recharging an aquifer, finances start flowing as they should again."

You want to get Americans back to work...stop the education budget cuts in the state of Colorado..that is the bottom line. You cant have something for nothing!

[Legal and no longer waiting]

I especially like how he want's his son's professors salary to paid from the money he "paid into the system over the years". Sorry pal, unless that money was not all spent and the surp[lus was put into a large savings account (and we know it was not), it is all loooooong gone. Just like saying that you want your Medicare bills paid out of your contributions over the years ;-) So friggin naive...

[Indy]

"That's because education is a public good, and Colorado wants an educated citizenry, so we all chip in"

That sounds like what your Joe the "plumber" called "socialism" and your own Tancredo and Musgrave will agree with that. Now that your "socialist" Obama is in power why dont you ask him to deport all the Gujjus and Gultis ..

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"You can't say the local students aren't paying "their share" as their parents paid it previously over the years "

If that was true, then the State Colleges would not need foreigner's tuition to pay "operating expense" would not they?

"The local tuition is reduced to reflect the subsidy already paid in by their parents and other taxpayers in previous years."

Well, apparently, not enough. Otherwise, there would not be a shortfall.

Can't you add two and two and underastand that if colleges need to admit more full-tuition students to break even, then it simply means that the locals don't pay enough. Your options are 1) increase state taxes to fund education 2) increase in-state tuition to pay fairer share of expenses 3) increase the number of out of state students to subsidize in-state tuition. There are no other options.

[q]

No it's not the bottom line. The bottom line is to get Americans back to work. Not unemployment, not underemployment, not the dole. Then, like recharging an aquifer, finances start flowing as they should again.

[George Chell]

"You still don't get it. The state university system is paid for in large part by taxpayers. You can't say the local students aren't paying "their share" as their parents paid it previously over the years just as some Chennai Brahmin parents save up and pay their kids' way over here. It's like a college savings fund, only in the form of a subsidy for institutions against future enrollment. The local tuition is reduced to reflect the subsidy already paid in by their parents and other taxpayers in previous years. That's because education is a public good, and Colorado wants an educated citizenry, so we all chip in. Until a bunch of rich gultis and gujus show up, I guess. (those are their terms, not mine) I don't suppose our kids or their parents will be issued a refund??? I didn't think so."

Bottom line is colleges are strapped. They can either admit foreigners and out of staters and increase their revenue or go broke with more layoffs and ever increasing unemployment. When times were good, instead of fixing Universities and educating more Americans, the citizens of Colorado did vote for tax cuts without any concern about cuts in education budgets when the economy turned sour. Now they are crying..as I said, tough luck. You were warned....

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jan/08/state-college-funding-teeters-on-the-brink/

You want privilege...pay up and campaign against future tax cuts! You want more locals at the universities, campaign against tax rollbacks in the future..after that come and talk!

The same nonsense took place in Indiana..due to tax cuts and government budget cuts, Purdue engineering school's financing went from 80% state in 1983 to 60% private. Now, the citizens many of whom voted for tax cuts instead of fixing the universities are angry that more foreigners and fewer locals are admitted to engineering schools. Tough luck! The engineering school is now financed by both local and foreign corporations which provide scholarships..so despite what is on paper Purdue Engineering is no longer a public entity..and the residents of Indiana dont get the first privilege!

[Indy]

Looks like devil Tom Tancredo is planning to run for governor of Colorado, q , you can volunteer for him and solve all the problems of colorado by electing him , looks like you have a lot in common with him.

[George Chell]

"For Colorado to bypass local students in favor of pursuing enrollment by foreigners would be especially troubling in the case of Colorado State University, which is a land grant college. The land grant colleges have a special, historic mission (with public investments backing them) to provide education to citizens related to developing their livelihoods. To withhold such practical education from citizens in order to chase foreign dollars would violate and end the mission of a land grant college. Yet one of my sons reported a fresh and large crop of foreign students there (at CSU) every semester. Many would start out in engineering, flunk out, switch to some other major such as business, and often flunk out there too. His impression was that the school was benefiting from this financially. (He graduated by the way and is employed)."

Universities have to survive..they have got to get revenue. That is why the government has to set priorities. Let us not forget what landed the citizens of Colorado in this predicament. During good times, rolling back taxes especially for the wealthy, and cuts in education budgets...I will bet you anything that the citizens of Colorado will pass a referendum cutting taxes if there was one next year..yes, even now. After that they dont like seeing their budgets cut..tough luck..it is sink or swim time for everyone, citizens and Universities alike! I do perfectly understand the predicament and the citizens of Colorado are responsible for this...they want to have their cake and eat it too!

[q]

You still don't get it. The state university system is paid for in large part by taxpayers. You can't say the local students aren't paying "their share" as their parents paid it previously over the years just as some Chennai Brahmin parents save up and pay their kids' way over here. It's like a college savings fund, only in the form of a subsidy for institutions against future enrollment. The local tuition is reduced to reflect the subsidy already paid in by their parents and other taxpayers in previous years. That's because education is a public good, and Colorado wants an educated citizenry, so we all chip in. Until a bunch of rich gultis and gujus show up, I guess. (those are their terms, not mine) I don't suppose our kids or their parents will be issued a refund??? I didn't think so.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

P.S. If you are not intelligent enough to understand what my name means, I am an LPR. I would pay in-state tuition ;-) You can still call me "guest", I don't care, just be happy that those high tax bracket H1 and LPR "guests" are not yet ready to leave and take their tax dollars with them. Otherwise, there would be fewer people to subsidize your son's degree through the state tax system.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

q, and you demonstrate poor cognitive skills so common to the "natives". First, let's review your own statement: "the higher tuition and fees will go towards current operating expenses" - i.e. foreign students will be paying for college's operating expenses, thus, subsidizing locals who will still pay lower college fees, and thus will not pay their share of the operating expenses. Second, having "current operating expenses" paid probably means that the university will not have to cut admissions, which they may have to do if there is not enough money to pay those "operating expenses". Of course, that would not impact the admissions of the locals - oh, wait, it will. Third, your only other option to keep the admissions stable and expenses paid is to raise in-state tuition - if you are for that option, by all means, contact your state representative.

[q]

Again, "Legal and no longer waiting" demonstrates the poor reading comprehension skill so common among our "guests." The point is that locals will be denied college seats, not that higher paying foreign students will subsidize them. That's not going to happen - the higher tuition and fees will go towards current operating expenses, and the locals will be shut out.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

Yes, how dare those paying foreign students in Colorado subsidize education of locals!

[q]

For Colorado to bypass local students in favor of pursuing enrollment by foreigners would be especially troubling in the case of Colorado State University, which is a land grant college. The land grant colleges have a special, historic mission (with public investments backing them) to provide education to citizens related to developing their livelihoods. To withhold such practical education from citizens in order to chase foreign dollars would violate and end the mission of a land grant college. Yet one of my sons reported a fresh and large crop of foreign students there (at CSU) every semester. Many would start out in engineering, flunk out, switch to some other major such as business, and often flunk out there too. His impression was that the school was benefiting from this financially. (He graduated by the way and is employed).

[q]

George Chell forgets why the state of Colorado is looking to cut budgets and find more revenue. Coloradoans who are out of work or underemployed can't pay in as much tax revenue! Duh! And as for paying for the University system, they've been funding it for decades and still are. Nobody said anything about the foreign students' looks, race, or color. Merely the unfairness of being able to bump natives who'd paid for the system they were bumping into all along. Then they will say that we don't have brains, aren't educated, etc. etc. That's how they work the caste system over there. They deny people education, water for cleanliness, adequate nutrition, then point to their inferiority and uncleanliness. Now they are here trying to do the same to us. They are talking to us here the way they speak to Dalits. It's a put-down war. You think we're racists towards them? How about their views of us? "WE HINDUS ARE THE SUPERIOR-MOST HUMAN BEINGS ON THIS EARTH.. As Sri Arumindos had RGHTLY said" We are a people as ancient as our hills & rivers & we have behind us a history of MANIFOLD greatness NOT surpassed by any other race"..." It's great to feel good about yourself, but the most superior???

http://www.expressindia.com/news/messages.php?newsid=29464

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"To bring in hundreds of thousands of rank and file workers, of average intellects, with ordinary skill sets, just on the hopes that America will net an Einstein thereby, is foolish math."

Really? Brin's parents were rank and file. Now, he employs thousands of people in one of the most sucessful ventures (not you, of course, you are not up to par for his company). On the second thought, I take it, your ancestors who came in 1880-1920 were all Nobel Prize winners. Well, too bad you did not inherit their intellectual abilities.

[George Chell]

"And salaries aren't keeping pace with inflation in the IT industry."

That is because many anti-immigrant forces forget that it is a global economy..and global workforce. Interesting no one debates that issue and try to skirt around it..which along with no protests against university budget cuts by the antis make me deduce that it has everything to do with racism, and the demographic nature of the neighborhood changing rather than improving the welfare of the American worker! As shown in my previous attachment, Indians will find "American" jobs in Singapore, UAE, Hong Kong and Australia...they dont have to come here...and the biggest loosers are us...as they will pay their taxes elsewhere and we will loose out on tax revenues needed to train Americans.

[George Chell]

"The state universities here in Colorado are right now lobbying the state government to lift any restrictions on enrolling foreign students as a proportion of admissions. The foreign students will think it's because they are smarter and because they competed against local students and won. It will really be because their parents will pay a much, much higher rate of tuition and fees for them than the locals do, because the parents of the locals have been subsidizing the state universities through decades of taxation. Programs will expand, but not fast enough, and local students will be denied seats they should have gotten, with no refund of the taxes their parents paid. The foreigners will yell about racism if anyone questions this."

I will not shout racism! However, I will say that if you want the services, pay for it. Taxpayers want more Americans trained, then pay for it. The world does not owe you a living! The university budget is being cut and they have to make it up somewhere or lay off even more people! Tough luck! Beggars cant be choosers just because they may look a certain way, ie., different from majority of street beggars around the world!

[Hello Again (Roy)]

You caught me Greg. But I've not encouraged people to post here. Reading the thread of back and forths, it's why I got tired of posting.

I don't think immigration attorneys, immigrants workers, and American workers can possibly have a civil discourse over the issue. We are all mad for our various issues.

Immigrants are often mistreated by employers. (not ALWAYS, H-1b guy in top 1% of earners, but OFTEN). Plus, the program is a mess for them and disruptive to their goal of just living a normal life.

American workers are of course upset because of high unemployment and in IT occupations the increased supply of workers (paid on average below median wages according to government statistics).

I don't know what has immigration lawyers mad. Lack of sleep?

But in any event we are all mad and without a moderated forum nothing productive will ever be said. I've not found that we can agree on much, even on what the facts are. The source of much of the information, on both sides, comes from groups or individuals with an interest in the outcome so they must be looked at with scrutiny.

However, we have independent data from the BLS, GAO reports, and recent legal cases which should be accepted as fact.

Finally, I don't really have anything new to add to the debate. The issue hasn't changed much over the last 10 years. IT lobbyists and immigration attorneys still say the same things. Legal cases are piling up when it comes to H-1b fraud. The government has released some reports critical of fraud. And salaries aren't keeping pace with inflation in the IT industry.

And my message is nearly the same as it was 5 years ago. I think we should welcome immigrants into our country, not indentured servants. Immigration should not subsidize or target specific industries, and immigrants should not be put through a gauntlet and insane buracracy in order to come here. But on the other side, immigration must be mindful of the labor force and not be disruptive to that.

As far as the anti-immigrant rhetoric, I don't find it helpful to the issue. I wish it would stop. Hate the policy, not the victims (or in some cases beneficiaries) of the policy. The same thing goes for anti-American rhetoric. There is a lot of that out there also. It all needs to stop because we can't debate complex subjects when it is mixed with fear and hatred.

I don't mind debating this issue, but I would prefer to do it in a structured format where there are rules and protocol.

[q]

The state universities here in Colorado are right now lobbying the state government to lift any restrictions on enrolling foreign students as a proportion of admissions. The foreign students will think it's because they are smarter and because they competed against local students and won. It will really be because their parents will pay a much, much higher rate of tuition and fees for them than the locals do, because the parents of the locals have been subsidizing the state universities through decades of taxation. Programs will expand, but not fast enough, and local students will be denied seats they should have gotten, with no refund of the taxes their parents paid. The foreigners will yell about racism if anyone questions this.

[George Chell]

"To bring in hundreds of thousands of rank and file workers, of average intellects, with ordinary skill sets, just on the hopes that America will net an Einstein thereby, is foolish math. American can't afford to do this any more, but this is the truth about the H-1B program. We already have a visa for the truly great, the O visa, and there is no cap. H-1Bs need to get over themselves. They are not God's gift to the world."

You can end the H1B program and chase everyone out, but the fact is they are not going to hire you..they will hire foreigners elsewhere...

http://www.mydigitalfc.com/jobs/ambition-rides-iims-481

At the end of the day, with or without H1B you will still be unemployed..you can have all the sense of entitlement, but you will still be unemployed. You can rant and rave till cows come home!

[George Chell]

They dont have to bring them to this country. They can always offer foreigners jobs abroade, and none of you can do anything about it...not Grassley, not Obama....

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/jobs/Recession-fears-61-IIM-Calcutta-students-bag-international-offers/articleshow/5220437.cms

They dont have to hire any Americans if they dont want to..they can hire foreigners abroad..which means not only would Americans be still unemployed, but they will loose tax revenue too. Perhaps this is what Candelario wants and perhaps Mari too!

[Greg SIskind]

Well, as this thread has devolved in to a name calling exercise, I'm going to lock it down. But I will remind the lurkers who have presumably been encouraged to come here by the usuals, that while I'm fine with making an anti-immigrant case in the comments, I will ban posters who make abusive comments (personal attacks, racism, etc.). If you insist on your right to say whatever you want, go to typepad.com and you can blog to your heart's content and speak to an audience that actually wants to hear what you have to say.

[Indy]

"They are not God's gift to the world. "

No sane person thinks he or she is , looks like you do because you were born here...

[LFWF]

Thanks Indy, I do too, way more than just the 6 figure mark. But we will always be "average intellect" "lowly paid" people that cannot make the mark because we are not "Einsteins".

[LFWF]

Just to put a context to this, I am not on an H1B visa. Just can't stand the crap that is being peddled by these people who can't compete and resort to atatcking others.

[Indy]

I am indian and fortunately still employed making more than 6 digits a year. I think this person "Candelario" will lose sleep over this fact tonight. I am in CA so blame CA budget crisis on Indians in sillicon valley and elsewhere.

[LFWF]

The Sioux? You mean the people whose jobs, lands and lives your immigrant ancestors took?

And not immigrant any more huh? How exactly did they happen to be here if not for immigration though? That...is the point...hope you can understand things when they are spelt out.
When these "diverse" people first arrived, they faced the same crap and the same attacks. Read your own history. Their children are here as fait accompli. But history repeats itself meanwhile....

[Candelario]

To bring in hundreds of thousands of rank and file workers, of average intellects, with ordinary skill sets, just on the hopes that America will net an Einstein thereby, is foolish math. American can't afford to do this any more, but this is the truth about the H-1B program. We already have a visa for the truly great, the O visa, and there is no cap. H-1Bs need to get over themselves. They are not God's gift to the world.

[LFWF]

Haha..and we will get a repub instead...and they are enemies of a guest worker program of course. How naiive you are!

No crimp in my plans anyway. I have a job and cannot be replaced that easily. You, on the other hand..be afraid :-)

[Candelario]

Only diverse because of the immigrants? Tell that to the Sioux or the Hawaiians. And, most Americans are not immigrants - any more. over 80% were born here, and have no identification or association with any other country or culture, except as a genealogy exercise.

[LFWF]

Oh grow up and learn to argue at least.

It is only diverse because of the immigrants. Once you start hating them and want to throw them out, that diversity will be gone too. So you cannot have it both ways.