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« ARIZONA IMMIGRATION LAW COULD COST US WORLD CUP | Main | IMMIGRANT OF THE DAY: RIMA FAKIH - MISS USA »

May 17, 2010

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Jack, you obviously have not watched the series on the police women of Manicopa county. It is shown very clearly that these officers when they get bored go an stop older vans for no apparent reason whatsoever. If they see Hispanic passengers in the van, they start asking everyone their ID, yes, even the passengers. Obviously, what you think will not happen under this law is already happenning on the streets of Arizona. The point of the law is to justify what's already happenning.

"Walking up to someone on the street and saying "Show me your papers" is not allowed under the new law."

Yeah but they can if the have " legal contact" which means just about any contact with the police. It is c lear that only certain people will be asked for their paper when contact occurs.

"The cynical premise is that law enforcers = law breakers and it gets you nowhere. It's saying whatever the law requires, it doesn't matter because law enforcers don't follow the law anyway"

Hardly about that it is more about having real solution for a real problem and not hide technically under the law to enforce a bad law and a bad solution. Take the example of prohibition in the 30's or the current war on drugs, the prohibition laws only caused violence and were not solving the problem, yet the law was being enforced back then....

" Here's the sensible middle ground and how it should be done in a system based on rule of law: train them to enforce the law correctly then "police the police" if they don't. Nothing can prevent the police from doing anything--but if you have consequences if they do what the law says they shouldn't, it will be in their interest to follow the law."

That is exactly what MOST police chiefs are complaining about, they do not want to become ICE agents, they want to serve their communities as intended and leave immigration enforcement for the federal government to handle. It does not have to be either Anarchy or enforce the law, life does not work in absolutes... The enforcement only approach for the past 10 years has done nothing to slow down the rate of migration to the US, like prohibition is time for a different approach.

"Check the case law. Or are they implying that all of the other court approved legal bases are also illegitimate? If procedure is really your concern, why the obsession with Arizona rather than ICE (which has more leeway)? Is it because if every state used its law enforcement to enforce immigration law that would multiply the amount of ICE's manpower by over 100"

Nooo this goes to the presumption of innocence, motive and clearly racial profiling... while they may turn every law enforcement officer into an ICE agent and the whole place into a police state. Clearly that is not what America is all about, is only the America that the enforcement only folks and the deport them all back and restrictionist want and you off-course Jack!!!
"If the organizations behind this lawsuit are so concerned that law enforcement officer discretion will be abused, there are other ways to enforce immigration law that take judgment calls out of the equation. Since these organizations are against those methods too, maybe it’s just immigration law itself they don’t like (for various reasons not having to do with civil rights)."

These organizations are concerned with the discretion the AZ law gives to the police per the way this law is written. Again there you go thinking in absolutes only, it is all Black and White for you... this law suit is precisely in order to preserve the civil rights of all people under the law. We do not have to choose between a Police State or Anarchy Jack there are other choices...Such as not to pass a law for pure political posturing that people know is wrong and does not address nor resolve the problem correctly and people should not be stuck with a bad law just to apiece some republican nativists...

The video:

Walking up to someone on the street and saying "Show me your papers" is not allowed under the new law.


"Language inserted in the bill supposedly to prevent racial profiling is purely cosmetic. It won't prevent the police from asking people for their papers based on race and the way they look."

The cynical premise is that law enforcers = law breakers and it gets you nowhere. It's saying whatever the law requires, it doesn't matter because law enforcers don't follow the law anyway. The absurd implication is why bother having any law at all (not just immigration related)? The other extreme is blindly trusting authority. Here's the sensible middle ground and how it should be done in a system based on rule of law: train them to enforce the law correctly then "police the police" if they don't. Nothing can prevent the police from doing anything--but if you have consequences if they do what the law says they shouldn't, it will be in their interest to follow the law. It's unnecessary and unwise to embrace anarchy as the only alternative. Don't blindly trust enforcers of law but if you assume they're inherently incapable of following the law there is no place to go with that premise.


"On what other basis would a police officer suspect that someone is not lawfully present in the United States?"

Check the case law. Or are they implying that all of the other court approved legal bases are also illegitimate? If procedure is really your concern, why the obsession with Arizona rather than ICE (which has more leeway)? Is it because if every state used its law enforcement to enforce immigration law that would multiply the amount of ICE's manpower by over 100?

P.S.

If the organizations behind this lawsuit are so concerned that law enforcement officer discretion will be abused, there are other ways to enforce immigration law that take judgment calls out of the equation. Since these organizations are against those methods too, maybe it’s just immigration law itself they don’t like (for various reasons not having to do with civil rights).

A lot of big wigs!!! Should be fun.

Jan Brewer is white so no issue, imagine if Bobby Jindal was driving through AZ he would surely be pulled over & asked papers.

Way to go! It is nice to see that there are people in Arizona who will stand up for their fundamental rights, despite the efforts of the governor. I would like to see if the police department has the guts to stop the governors car and ask for her papers when she is traveling! Does she carry her passport or birth certificate with her always ? Or maybe .... they wont stop her cause she does not look "out of the ordinary" !.

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