Priority Date Bill Up for Full House Vote Tomorrow

ImmigrationVoice, the skilled workers advocacy organization (I serve on their board of outside advisors by the way) is reporting that the Fairness for High Skilled Immigrants Act (HR 3012), the bill which would eliminate per country quotas that discriminate against Indians and other nationals, is headed for a vote in the full House of Represenatives tomorrow evening. It still faces an uncertain future as it moves to the Senate, but congrats to IV for its work advocating for this much needed legislation. If you're not an IV member, consider joining and contributing.

Comments

[USC]

"This bill increases the FB allocataion of the Philippines & Mexico by 8% each."

This wasn't well written. It should have read:

This bill more than doubles the FB allocataion of the Philippines & Mexico from 7% to 15%.

[USC]

"a half a million Indian applicants"

For Chindia it actually happens to be a zero sum game because these countries have substantial backlogs in the FB categories. This bill increases the FB allocataion of the Philippines & Mexico by 8% each. Thus the FB quota for everyone else including Chindia is decreased by 16% and the wait is also increased by 16%.

In a nutshell, only Mexico come out ahead (since they don't use too many EB visas), the Philippines comes out a bit ahead because while they lose a bit on EB they gain more on FB, Chindia come out even as they use both FB & EB. All the other countries lose substantially on both FB & EB.

[Sa]

"I think it is sad that IV has taken up such a divisive approach, and it is even sadder that they are proud of it and happily defend their bill as "not increasing any numbers!". This is the whole problem, IMO--that numbers need to be increased. Increase numbers, then remove country limits without hurting other countries and destabilizing the immigration system, and reform the rules."

IV did not take a divisive approach , they are just doing what is possible in the political climate we are in now.

Why dont you guys get a bill that increases the numbers drafted and get it to the floor of the house instead of just blaming IV. IV will be more than happy to support such a bill whenever it is considered by the house or the senate.

[Paul Wilson]

>> Sorry Paul, but we've heard the same arguments in this country for more than 100 years. Your logic is what was used to impose quotas on Jewish students who administrators feared were "flooding" Ivy League schools. Today we hear the same thing in California regarding Asian Americans. If you don't like the so-called "body shops" reform the rules in a way that doesn't institutionalize nationality discrimination. It happens to be that a third of the world's population comes from two countries.

Greg, with all due respect, but this is not the argument I'm making. I said that with this misguided law we will create a serious imbalance because in a system of scarce visas, a half a million Indian applicants, and 5-year waits, nobody else will want to apply. I'm not arguing for denying these Indians the opportunity to immigrate, just to do something more reasonable (i.e. increase number of visas, not count family members or PhDs against the quota, etc.) that will give people from other nationalities a chance as well.

I think it is sad that IV has taken up such a divisive approach, and it is even sadder that they are proud of it and happily defend their bill as "not increasing any numbers!". This is the whole problem, IMO--that numbers need to be increased. Increase numbers, then remove country limits without hurting other countries and destabilizing the immigration system, and reform the rules.

[Another Voice]

"No, to tell other kids (and 30+ year olds) that if Dream Act does not pass, you should consider suicide as an alternative."

To make a connection between the tragic death of a young person and the non passage of DREAM is a stretch.... I think the media is making the background of this story who knows what really was going oj with this young person. But we should agree that millions of kids are subjected to tremendous amounts of stress due to their immigration status and some may not be equipped to handle that stress and bad consequences may arise but that is as far as a connection should be made....

[Another Voice]

Sid politics is the art of the possible if you had to give Gutierrez and the HC something in return for their support great in the end it means that more immigrants will get relief from this and that is a good thing considering the non-progress on immigration reform bills in the past 25 years... Good old you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours

[Sid]

"You mean, to help children who were dealt the most horrible card in life, and want to do something with their lives, go to college, contribute to society? Yes, that's trury deplorable."

No, to tell other kids (and 30+ year olds) that if Dream Act does not pass, you should consider suicide as an alternative.

"You do truly have no heart."

At least I have a brain. Can't say the same about you.

[Sid]

AV,

Thanks for the link to the article. I was puzzled to read that Gutierrez supported this. Then I read this paragraph and it made sense -

"The legislation also includes a measure that will more than double the green cards based on family ties available for Mexicans and Filipinos, the two national groups facing the longest backlogs on the family side of the system. It raises the country limit for 226,000 family green cards each year to 15 percent from the current 7 percent."

The next line confirmed that -

"The fix in the family visas helped to persuade Democrats like Mr. Gutierrez to sign on to the bill."

@Paul Wilson

Your calculations are not accurate. Under the current backlog figures, it takes EB3-I 2-3 years to advance 1 year in priority dates. It only gets worse from 2005-2006 onward when PERM was introduced. The wait time for EB3-I would reduce drastically, not just by 1 year. The cutoff is Aug '02 in the Dec bulletin. After 3 years (2014), it might reach Aug '03 or Jan '04 at best, meaning at least a 10 year total wait if you're lucky. After that it'll start moving by 3-5 years, possibly more, reducing the wait not by 1 year but several.

"Under the bill, after a three-year transition, all employment-based green cards will be issued on a first-come-first-served basis, with no country limits."

[Legal and no longer waiting]

Paul, I agree with Greg. It really does not get much worse when you start dividing people into "immigrants from Canada or Europe" (i.e. the whites) and those from "third world countries" (i.e. the non-whites) to argue that some of them should be given a preference. Yacky horrible feeling all over.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"I find it deplorable that the Dream Act supporters are trying to sensationalize a tragic incident and use it for their benefit."

You mean, to help children who were dealt the most horrible card in life, and want to do something with their lives, go to college, contribute to society? Yes, that's trury deplorable.

You do truly have no heart.

[Greg Siskind]

Sorry Paul, but we've heard the same arguments in this country for more than 100 years. Your logic is what was used to impose quotas on Jewish students who administrators feared were "flooding" Ivy League schools. Today we hear the same thing in California regarding Asian Americans. If you don't like the so-called "body shops" reform the rules in a way that doesn't institutionalize nationality discrimination. It happens to be that a third of the world's population comes from two countries.

[Paul Wilson]

>> No one here has yet to give an explanation for why institutionalized nationality discrimination in the immigration system is justified.

To put some checks and balances on countries whose national policy is to increase their GDP by exporting their population?

If a country like India "creates" a disproportionate number of software engineers of varying quality of training and exports them to the US, then without any checks and balances, the US will find it very hard to hire an automotive engineer from Denmark, for example. If all the visas are claimed by body-shops and Infosys-like consulting companies based in India, then Genentech, Chrysler, or Boeing won't be able to attract talent from Germany, Canada, or Australia.

Just because of the sheer numbers, the immigration system will become flooded with people from third-world countries who are willing to wait decades rather than return to their country. Immigrants from Canada or Europe won't have that level of tolerance, e.g. a German engineer won't wait 5 or 10 years to get a green-card, so they'll just leave.

I'm not saying that nationality discrimination is the way to solve the problem, but currently it is the only thing to provide some checks and balances in a system plagued by fraud (fake credentials, fake companies, buying and selling of labor certs in the past, etc.) I agree that the system needs to be reformed, but this law is the worst possible way to go about it. It will only make the system more unbalanced and will turn the immigration process into a third-world experience.

IV is seriously misguided about this. They should work on a more principled solution to increase overall visa numbers rather than create a serious imbalance and delay everybody from EB3-ROW by 5 more years so that EB3-India's priority dates could advance by 1 year.

[Sid]

My comments are unrelated. That's why they are two separate comments.

I find it deplorable that the Dream Act supporters are trying to sensationalize a tragic incident and use it for their benefit. We're supposed to believe that the choices for this kid were Dream Act or suicide. Really, that's the message you want to send out to the 2 million or so kids (and 30+ year olds)? I'm not saying that getting into college and paying for it would be a piece of cake for these kids. Articles on NYTimes and other newspapers seem to be able to find Dream Act kids who're enrolled in USC and other good schools, so it's not impossible to get into a local college that's more affordable. His family doesn't have any problem with giving him access to a gun. Everything is the fault of the people who voted against the Dream Act.

[Another Voice]

IT PASSED!!!

Highly Skilled May Wait Less for Visas

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/30/us/green-card-backlog-may-ease-for-some-from-china-and-india.html?ref=us

[Legal and no longer waiting]

Sid, yes, it would be easy for an illegal immgrant to afford a college in the US, without the right to work or availability of most financial aid. Sure, his family must be wealthy enough. Let's find some DREAM Act supporter to blame.

An 18 year old killed himself... sure, your struggles were enourmous, you had to wait for the green card for 4 and 1/2 years. Do you even have a heart?

[alpesh patee]

my file us immigration visa f3 dec2004 file open when nvc send ds3032 india adreess why

[Sid]

I hope this bill passes in the Senate. It'll be great if the next generation of EB immigrants from India and China didn't have to wait for more than 4 & 1/2 years to get their GCs like me. EB3 folks will finally see the end to this seemingly unending wait.

[Sid]

I don't understand the connection between the Dream Act and this kid not being able to go to college. I thought the Dream Act would legalize kids who attend two years of college - not give them admission or fund their tuition. Many colleges accept illegal students or there are loopholes to get in. I hope this kid didn't kill himself because some Dream Act supporter lied or misinformed him.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

I am glad it passed. I hope, it will pave way for more immigration legislation. Little unfairness may get solved. The big ones, however, remain with no solution in sight.

Don't tell me it does not make you sad when you read stories like this.
http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/29/family-says-undocumented-student-killed-himself-over-fears-hed-never-go-to-college/?hpt=hp_c2

[Greg SIskind]

Please honor one of the few rules I have for this blog's comments sections - that we respect each other and not issue personal attacks. JoeF is a long time contributor to this blog and the handle above attacking his views is not going to be tolerated. I am editing them accordingly. Thank you. The Management.

[JoeF]

"Jeez...it is hard to have a conversation here"

Of course it is hard to have a conversation when you have nothing better to do than to do personal attacks. You should start by changing your ridiculous and immature signature.
Grow up for a change. Or are you still on kindergarten level?

[Mike]

Time is big issue in Senate to pass in this year. But we never know and anything can happen. But there is highly likely this bill will become law. This year or next year is the question. Row's only hope will be the bill dies in the Senate because of time so that it can be postponed to next year. Any bill goes to next year will have uncertain results as the bill could be put on sidelines when lot of other priority bills are there

[A]

"It will pass the Senate as well. Come on guys....with voting numbers like today. It will pass the Senate for sure."

Most of the legislation dies in the Senate. I am afraid what will Mr Durbin and Grassely duo do with this bill.

[Sick of Hypocrisy]

God Willing!
But we have to help ourselves and keep working for it.

[Shaq]

It will pass the Senate as well. Come on guys....with voting numbers like today. It will pass the Senate for sure.

[Sick of Hypocrisy]

Passed!!
389-15 :-)
Nays were 13 Pubs and 2 Dems

[Sick of Hypocrisy]

The vote is on. The bill has passed with an overwhelming bipartisan majority in favor.
304 yeas to 9 nays so far.

[Sick of Hypocrisy]

Since the word "fought' evokes such a visceral reaction, I'd like to clarify that we "fought" for the whole package. Increase numbers, recapture, streamlined system and removal of quotas. Nothing, at this time is acceptable to the House other than this one measure. In your world view, we should keep waiting for the ideal to happen. But for those stuck in a decades long wait for no reason other than country of birth, that argument does not hold water. IV will continue to "fight" for the rest. This is a first step. It is up to ROW and others to fight along side or sulk. LNLW you have always opposed country quotas and I respect that. Please don't wish for the perfect hold back the possible at this time. More will come, if we stop being selfish and denying that this is only just, and join together. Otherwise, like always, ROW will keep away and dilute the effort. So far that worked for them as everything but EB3ROW worked without wait and EB3ROW worked with much less wait than for India/China. Now we will all be in the same boat. So the choice is each person's own to make.

I do not blame ROW folks for fearing an end to a privileged system. It is a natural and human response. Anyone would feel that way. I do blame JoeF and his ilk though. Those who complain about discrimination against "Hispanics" and scream about racism on every forum, should recognize discrimination when it affects others as well...and oppose it. To think that discrimination and quotas are OK when they don't affect you is sheer hypocrisy and THAT is what truly divides the immigrant groups. Personally, I expect right thinking EB immigrants to support DREAM. But I also expect DREAM supporters to recognize the injustice of the country quotas.

BTW I did not "question" Joe's citizenship. I simply responded in his vein, when he questioned my GC (apparently I have to be selfish by default!). It was a rhetorical and argumentative tool. It was not the "argument" itself. Jeez...it is hard to have a conversation here :-)

[A]

"Why is this even an argument? If we disagree with quotas based on race, sex or sexual orientation, we cannot and should not have nationality quotas for skilled immigration. It is very interesting that the same white people who oppose set asides and quotas are also in favor of country quotas for skilled immigration. Demanding to maintain privilege folks?
"

Because the powerful and privileged classes never give up without a fight . ROW has been enjoying the benefits of an unfair system so far, They would never want to give up the system that benefits them .

[George Chell]

Why is this even an argument? If we disagree with quotas based on race, sex or sexual orientation, we cannot and should not have nationality quotas for skilled immigration. It is very interesting that the same white people who oppose set asides and quotas are also in favor of country quotas for skilled immigration. Demanding to maintain privilege folks?

[Another Voice]

"It is innately unfair that we allocate the same number of visas for Monaco as for India, for Aruba as for China. And we are losing out on a lot of great talent as a result. And at the end of the day, US immigration policy should focus on serving the nation's interests first. 3012 will bring us closer to that objective."

Greg has a great point here also, maybe if they based it on market needs and take out the need to be fair to country A or B just based on nationality it would work best.

[Another Voice]

I think common sense has a lot of CS!!! b with you brodha...

[common sense]

Looking at the comments a lot of people including Greg tried and failed to convince some folks here. Let me try this now.

The concept of EB immigration is that you try and get a foreign employee that is qualified for a certain job that you have on hand. It does not mean you should try and hire employees of different nationalities and just keep the jobs open until you find that diversity-balance. For example, lets say I have a Brazilian steak house and I need 10 chefs. I am obviously going to hire 10 chefs who are well versed in Brazilian cuisine. It is not logical to hire 2 Brazilian chefs, 2 vegetarians from India, 2 more from Bhutan just to have diversity. In fact it is crazy. I need some one who can make good steaks. I want to get the 10 best ones I can for my money. The first 10 folks I like get jobs. I don't, as an employer, care if they all are from the same country.

[A]

"Yes, fighting for what's right is hard. It requires big ideas, inspiration, knowledge, persuasion, and ability to bring many people of different backgrounds together. Things IV sorely lacks"

Big Ideas and Big Legislation are two different things. Obamacare is a good example of a big legislation

So What? As you were saying every one has their own agenda. IV cares about their members just like Durbin and CHC members care about their own bases.

Row members can join IV or they can start their own organization that furthers their agenda and lobby , right to association is protected by the first amendment.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"Anything that increases immigration numbers is a non starter for many in congress in this economy. IV is a small organization and it does not have the kind of clout needed for increasing immigration numbers."

Yes, fighting for what's right is hard. It requires big ideas, inspiration, knowledge, persuasion, and ability to bring many people of different backgrounds together. Things IV sorely lacks.

[Mex]

"It will also cement their reputation for being "Indian Voice", which is likely to hurt their clout in the long run. There are two sides to this coin"

It may not be that bad , For too long , immigration debate is dominated by CHC , MALDA etc which just care about one country that is Mexico.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"Immigration Voice will score a big victory as the passing of the bill increase their clout and they will get more funds and more powerful in immigration advocacy and Lobbying."

It will also cement their reputation for being "Indian Voice", which is likely to hurt their clout in the long run. There are two sides to this coin.

[A]

"Capture unused visas and quotas increase are two DIFFERENT things. One is a temporary reprieve, and another is a permanent increase that will serve immigrants year after year. The argument for the recapture is very weak - there were some unused visa gone bad, so what? The argument for quotas increase is very rich and deep. There are multiple ways in which quotas increase can happen - you can simply increase the number, you can exclude family members, you can exclude certain categories from being subject to the quotas, you can even argue that increase quotas will solve part of the illegal immgration problem, etc. There are MANY MANY ways to argue and structure the quotas increase and there are MANY pro-immigrant groups to negotiate with and draw support from.

Yes, they have chosen to concentrate on a pull and tug between immigrant categories. Thinking small and acting even smaller."

Thinking big did not work in 2006 and 2007 with failed CIRS. Thinking big did not work the ObamaCare .

Anything that increases immigration numbers is a non starter for many in congress in this economy. IV is a small organization and it does not have the kind of clout needed for increasing immigration numbers.

What were democrats doing about immigration whether legal or illegal when they were running whole DC. At least Bush tried CIR ..

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"They did try , House judiciary committee voted down the amendment by Ms. Lofgren to capture unused VISAs."

Capture unused visas and quotas increase are two DIFFERENT things. One is a temporary reprieve, and another is a permanent increase that will serve immigrants year after year. The argument for the recapture is very weak - there were some unused visa gone bad, so what? The argument for quotas increase is very rich and deep. There are multiple ways in which quotas increase can happen - you can simply increase the number, you can exclude family members, you can exclude certain categories from being subject to the quotas, you can even argue that increase quotas will solve part of the illegal immgration problem, etc. There are MANY MANY ways to argue and structure the quotas increase and there are MANY pro-immigrant groups to negotiate with and draw support from.

Yes, they have chosen to concentrate on a pull and tug between immigrant categories. Thinking small and acting even smaller.

[Mike]

Comment made Greg is correct. Actually it is difficult to pass any bill which has increase in immigration. So Immigration Voice too this bill. It will not improve PD much for EB3 India. Max 1 to 2 year improvement but for Row waiting time will increase. Everybody will have same PD. Immigration Voice will score a big victory as the passing of the bill increase their clout and they will get more funds and more powerful in immigration advocacy and Lobbying.Because of phasing Indians will not get full benefit until 3 years. Also Senate will not take bills as fast as house. So it is difficult to pass this year as time is very less. I am not sure how many senate days are left in this year. Let us wait and see what happens

[Greg Siskind]

Joe - I appreciate the concerns about divide and conquer, but trust me, there are plenty of issues beyond 3012 that will keep the skilled immigrant community engaged. It's a relatively small fix to a very broken system. And as I noted, what you say is correct in an ideal world. But how long should every legal immigration advocacy group stand on the sidelines? As they say in politics, the perfect is the enemy of the good. They also say that politics is the art of the possible. Both are appropriately applied here. If a deal including DREAM and other measures designed to deal with illegal immigration are not realistically going to happen, holding up every other needed change to the legal immigration system is not worth it.

With regard to the spillover, there is no country to country spillover. It's ROW to the individual oversubscribed countries. My point was that its unfair that countries with small populations get the same maximum allocation as the big ones. Were the system fair, the estimate of a 70 year wait for Indian EB-3s would not be the case. No one here has yet to give an explanation for why institutionalized nationality discrimination in the immigration system is justified. And preserving discrimination in order to avoid rocking the boat sounds very familiar. Finally, there is a provision that doubles the per country quotas on the family side and this will likely benefit Mexicans the most. A sizable portion of that group is illegally present and it is the reason why pro-immigration groups that favor DREAM have largely been neutral on the bill.

[A]

"What IV (and others) should have done instead of lobbying for HR3012 is to lobby for increasing the quotas."

They did try , House judiciary committee voted down the amendment by Ms. Lofgren to capture unused VISAs.

[JoeF]

Greg, I respectfully disagree that HR 3012 is a step forward.
It does, however, succeed in further dividing the immigrant community, as this discussion shows quite clearly.
As such, it would be a win for the antis.
What IV (and others) should have done instead of lobbying for HR3012 is to lobby for increasing the quotas.
We already have spill-over, so that numbers allocated to Monaco or Aruba but not used go to the oversubscribed countries. All HR3012 does is reallocate the rest of the numbers of Monaco and Aruba, which isn't a big number to begin with. So, a minuscule improvement of the PDs for India and China is bought with a pretty much permanent division and distrust between immigrants.
Too big of a price to pay, in my (not so) humble opinion.
This bill pretty much closes the door on any united effort by immigrants to get some real change through. It is a Trojan Horse.

[Greg Siskind]

This post has generated a healthy discussion and I wanted to weigh in with my view. We've had the debate over the years of trying to package immigration proposals versus pursuing them one by one. Packaging has been the strategy of the pro-immigration community since 2004 and we have not made progress. There are a variety of possible explanations, but the bottom line is that even when the political environment seemed to improved - Dems taking control of Congress and the presidency - that was not enough to overcome the filibuster. That being the case, I think the strategy has rightly shifted to one that focuses on smaller more achievable legislative objectives in Congress (such as 3012) with the President using his executive authority to focus on more controversial issues like dealing with the illegally present population.

At some point, the political environment WILL get better. That will likely be when the economy is hotter, when Congress has dealt with the filibuster crisis either by eliminating it or curtailing its use, when Latino voters' strength reaches a critical mass that ensures that both parties genuinely care about their concerns, etc. But we're not there yet so I think dealing with piecemeal immigration reform makes sense right now rather than holding up all pro-immigration legislation.

Now with respect to 3012, while I understand why the ROW people will not be happy, the waiting times are not expected to grow dramatically (partially because of a phase in period for the new law). Future applicants are more likely to be affected and I have not seen anyone make a compelling case why discrimination against Indians and Chinese is fair or in the best interests of the country. Furthermore, even if the law was not phased in to protect current applicants, I don't see why people who have been the beneficiaries of a discriminatory policy are in the position to complain. For example, when schools were desegregated in the South, the funding for the all-white segregated schools decreased as a result of evening out the funding to all schools. This arguably had a negative impact on educational outcomes for the children in the all-white schools. The kids who lost out weren't to blame for the system which benefited them. But we also didn't avoid changing the system to make it fair out of a concern that some innocent people would no longer benefit from an unfair system.

It is innately unfair that we allocate the same number of visas for Monaco as for India, for Aruba as for China. And we are losing out on a lot of great talent as a result. And at the end of the day, US immigration policy should focus on serving the nation's interests first. 3012 will bring us closer to that objective.

[JoeF]

It is interesting that certain people resort to name calling.
Shows nicely that they have no arguments. They discredit themselves, I don't even need to add anything. I just invoke Godwin's law: Anybody who resorts to Nazi comparisons has lost the discussion.

I agree with George, ideally there should be no quotas whatsoever. In fact, the nation state is a 19th Century construct that is largely obsolete in the 21st Century.
But I doubt that we'll see open borders anytime soon.

[S]

"With those from the DREAM Act being granted PDs of when they entered the US...as the HR3012 folks are fond of saying "First come first served is fair"

Most of these people will have a date of entry just few days after their birth. Its just declaration , no one will ever ask any proof from Dreamers anyway . LOL

[Legal and no longer waiting]

A, you sure Sessions and Numbers USA are not as evil as the nazis? Maybe not AS evil, I will grant you that... but they are sure not friends of any immgrants, legal included.

[George Chell]

"With your argument, there also should be no special treatment in DV for certain countries."

There should be no quota period...race quotas, sex quotas or country quotas. It is very interesting that bigots and racists (that is what they are!) supporting lawsuits against affirmative action, have little or nothing to say about country quotas for skilled immigrants. US is the only country which has such quotas. It is time for the US to join the rest of the world to compete for the best talent. The government should not be in the business of picking winners...the corporations and employers should have that right...it is their money and they can hire who they want and if they cannot hire them here, they can move the job to another country. They dont owe anyone anything except for the clowns who rely on federal bailouts!

[A]

Who ever brings nazis or for that matter concentration camps into immigration discussion is equally out of arguments . You can for amnesty or not but neither side is as evil as nazis are.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"Why should I believe you are citizen? "

You should not. It does not matter who JoeF is. That's the beauty of the internet - it really does not matter who says it. What matters is what is being said. You have to fight his argument, not his persona. If you have nothing better to say than "JoeF is an illegal immigrant, and that's why he thinks this way", it shows that you are out of argument.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"With those from the DREAM Act being granted PDs of when they entered the US...as the HR3012 folks are fond of saying "First come first served is fair""

LOL! Well noted. Seriously, though, it would be a terrible thing to put DREAM Act recipients into EB3. Terrible for DREAM Act recipients, and terrible for EB3 applicants. I am just surprised that did not cause an outrage... oh wait, nobody cares, as long as they get their green card first. After that, scorched earth is fine.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"We fought for 3012."

Basically, instead of fighting for everyone's good through an increase in the measely 140K quota, you fought (!!! - again FOUGHT) to take a visa number from an EB3 ROW and give it to EB3 India/China? That's your big goal worthy of fighting?

So, if you were put into a concentration camp and were not given enough water, instead of fighting to get out, get freedom or at least more water for everyone, you would put all of your effort into dividing the water? Sorry for an overbearing example, but it describes very well what you are doing. You are validating the complete crazyness of the measely 140K quota by putting all of your effort into fighting... well, basically, for a bigger chunk of it.

Now on a personal note, I am not a fan of the country quota. I don't think it is fair. However, FIGHTING for the quota to be out is stupid. If you have to FIGHT for something, at least make it worth the effort. Also, fighting in a way that hurts your fellow immigrants is bound to leave you alone in the fight. It is said to see IV being reduced to an Indian-centric group that thinks smaller and smaller every day.

[Jeff]

"And of course it would be a really interesting karmic retribution if DREAM Act and 3012 passed together, with DREAM Act recipients having to file in EB3, adding 300K Latin and Central American nationals to the category. It would show how commited people are to being treated equal."

With those from the DREAM Act being granted PDs of when they entered the US...as the HR3012 folks are fond of saying "First come first served is fair"

[JF]

"The real solution would be to increase the numbers"

I agree ,thats the real solution.

If democrats are so immigrant friendly , why didn't they do it when they ran the whole show in DC?

Yes they did create Obamacare that provides free health care to .... ,

You can fill in the blank in above statement

[IC]

"And, the number of people in a country does not imply a large number of applications"

You may be right , Mexico gets the most of number immigration visas every year way ahead of India and China.

[IC]

All the dream supporters here seem to have a problem with "Indian monopolization" of H1Bs . Ironically they dont support any country caps in DREAM or other legalization schemes .

I guess they just dont one kind of brown people not the other kind.

If you are so fond of country quotas , will you support them in Amnesty programs as well?

Dream is amnesty too.

[EA]

Dream is nothing but "Amnesty" because it deals with legalization of illegal aliens. It does not have anything to do with Legal Immigration and does not have any penalties for the undocumented presence.

People seem to have a problem with Indians getting H1Bs legally but they don't seem to have any problem with legalization of Millions more thru Dream and other amnesty measures.

Any form of Amnesty is dead on arrival in the house. What Mr. O was doing when he literally owned washington. He passed a crappy legislation called ObamaCare which resulted in unaffordable health care insurance.

"That's basically the same as this woman at Walmart using pepperspray to get an X-Box on Black Friday."

Looks like that lady did that in self defense of being stampeded by the crowds ( I think 11 million would be a crowd ...)

http://www.mercurynews.com/california/ci_19426509

[Sick of JoeF Style Hypocrisy]

"And, the number of people in a country does not imply a large number of applications. I suggest learning about correlation and causation..."

Since you are not a moron, I'll presume you are simply a one trick pony. DREAM, undocumented or nothing. Yes Joe, it does not imply. But it's true. You know that, given all your complaints about "H1B"...you are aware that EB immigrants come from certain countries in larger numbers. This kind of silly statement that India and China do not provide large numbers of skilled immigrants simply suggests you are willfully blind to anything that is non Hispanic.

I have a GC. I don't have to prove anything to you. I waited a very long time and lived in this country well over a decade before I got it. Why should I believe you are citizen? You see, two can play a game. Having a well known handle proves nothing dude. learn about causality and evidence. Short of a naturalization certificate, you don't ring true.

It was made clear to us, as crystal clear as could be that the Pubs would not agree to anything that increased a single GC number. Under those conditions fairness in the system while we work towards increasing numbers is not exactly "anti". I know you prefer to see you brethren pushed ahead in the line at the expense of others while we wait for this mythical "CIR". But sorry, some of us are realists. And that now includes leaders of the Hispanic caucus who are co sponsors of this bill. Make the effort to check.

Why should I support adding DREAM to this bill when we all know it will fail? You may think that failing with some noble idea of getting everything is preferable to getting something. Those of us suffering or having suffered the brunt of country quotas don't agree. We would love to see recapture and increased numbers...and DREAM. But that will happen when the time is right. We all know that is not now. Yes there is redistribution. But it is the right thing to do. People are not employed based on their country of birth. Their applications should not be lined up by that either. We will not be blackmailed by the "all or nothing" crowd anymore.

Joe, I know your handle. And I know you care for nothing but Hispanic causes. You are as bigoted as the antis you yell at. Just because you are not "Caucasian" does not mean you cannot be racist. If your kind are going to advocate for DREAM, best of luck finding support. Hopefully, if you actually make an effort with advocacy and stop wasting time foaming at the mouth on forums, you will understand the importance of doing the right thing even when others put forward inane and bigoted objections.

[JoeF]

Taking from A to give to B is simply the wrong solution. It causes bad blood for A and for B. The antis can be jubilant: they managed to divide the immigrant community. And certain people in the immigrant community were all too eager to help them.
The real solution would be to increase the numbers. But if this bill passes, that's going to be pretty much impossible. Good work, 5th brigade of the antis...

[JoeF]

Thank you for showing that you don't have arguments.
Unlike you, I have no personal stake in this. I am a US citizen since 2006, as is well known in the immigration community (my handle is somewhat prominent on immigration forums.) Your claim of having a GC doesn't quite ring true.
Anyway, if you support Dream, support adding it to this bill. As the saying goes: put your money where your mouth is.
And, the number of people in a country does not imply a large number of applications. I suggest learning about correlation and causation...

[Sick of JoeF Style Hypocrisy]

JoeF:

Pot calling the kettle black? I have no problems with DREAM. Already said I would fight for it. No benefit for me. Also, FYI I have a GC. So no benefit there either. Nothing selfish here.

But "all countries have a cap" is a bogus argument and you know it. Having the same cap for a country of 1 million and 1 billion is ridiculous. In one case the cap is meaningless, in the other it is punitive. You are the one hunting for arguments to support overt discrimination. You are the one that will not support something just because it does not include your favorite issues and ethnic groups. Please don't accuse others needlessly and project your own sentiments.

As far as "voting with feet is concerned", you telling people from larger countries to suck it and wait forever while others get green cards despite applying much after them or leave... separate but equal??? So this is your idea of choice??? The DREAMERS have the same choice. So do your favorite undocumented. Why all the angst for them then? (Now try and understand the concept of a rhetorical argument, I am not advocating this position, you missed it entirely last time, ah English...funny language dude!)

40%? India and China have over a billion people each. Actually together the have over two and a half billion. The world is over 6 billion. So 40%. Ok to please you, 35%, whatever.....this is not rocket science. also remember that since large parts of the world don't provide any EB immigrants, the ratio of people held back to the benefit of others in EB is actually much higher. If you have trouble counting let me know. I will be happy to show you how a percentage is calculated. "Primary source" ... ROTFLMAO.

So you think the problem of having "too many" Indians with H1B is solved by denying them green cards in a timely manner? This is your beautiful solution? Use country of birth as a reason to hold people back because you don't approve of how many H1Bs go to Indians in CS? Really???? And you analogy is pepper spray on black Friday? Are you insulting the intelligence of readers here or displaying your bigotry?

If there is a problem with H1B, identify it please and advocate a solution. I have no issue with that. Don't use it as an excuse to propagate your own bigotry. BTW I don't know if you understand that badly backlogged Spanish speaking countries like Mexico and Philippines will get a doubling of their cap in FB. Maybe that will mollify you just a bit.

Republicans...and large parts of the country....abhor any legalization...predominantly for Hispanic immigrants...and that is racist huh Joe? But and Indian or Chinese PhD in EB2 exceptional ability waiting many years while an MS with less qualifications from any other country walks in today and gets a GC...that is just nice and peachy for you, right? (Won't even bother with EB3 examples)

[JoeF]

Oh, and a final thing:
We have seen with the H1 a few years back what the effect of one country monopolizing the system is.
Maybe you understand it better in terms of computer science: The system we have is a decent one for distributing a scarce resource. It avoids resource starvation.

[JoeF]

The bottom line is that for your own personal benefit, you are ready and willing to screw over other people. That's basically the same as this woman at Walmart using pepperspray to get an X-Box on Black Friday.
Once you support others, e.g., the Dreamers, without a personal benefit for you, only then can I even take you seriously. Until then, you are just another "me first" person.

[JoeF]

First off, nobody get special treatment in EB. Everybody has a country quota. That's a fact, and no distortion changes that.
Second, it is unfortunate that there is a larger delay for people from certain countries, but that does not negate the first fact.
Third, throwing around numbers like 40% doesn't make it right, either. This is a number that somebody dreamed up. Provide a reliable primary source for it.
Fourth, people are "only held back" if they have switched their brain off when seeing the magic letters U, S, and A. How about considering a career in another country that is welcoming you more. Vote with your feet.

[Sick of the Hypocricy]

"No, they don't. Everybody is subject to the country quotas. Nobody gets "special treatment.""

Yes they do. 40% of the world is held back and they are pushed ahead in the line. That is special treatment. I'm sorry if you can't recognize it when it benefits you. But the fact remains.

[Sick of the Hypocricy]

JoeF;
How do two wrongs make a right? So if DV bars some countries, EB should make some people wait a decade while others waltz through, based on nothing but country of birth? Please hear yourself talk.
What is wrong with first come first serve? Why should my country of birth determine my employment prospects and career? I don't come here as Indian or Chinese and you don't come here as whatever you came as. We come here as individuals based on employment needs. To hold one of us back because we come from highly populated lands is simply discrimination.

In future I know how to interpret your talk about DREAM/Hispanics/Undocumented/Discrimination/Arizona et al. You clearly don't really care, except about you own. Hypocrite!!!!

As far as DREAM is concerned, why doom one measure which miraculously has bipartisan support by adding another that doesn't? There's work left to be done for DREAM. But this all or nothing philosophy is crap and even the Hispanic caucus has abandoned it. Go look at the list of co sponsors for 3012. If you want DREAM fight for it. We fought for 3012. I would fight for DREAM too, though you make me wonder why I should bother with advocates like you that grudge me any benefit without you getting your pound of flesh.

[Picadally]

Greg,

You mention "uncertain future as it moves to the Senate" - does the bill not have any chance to pass in the Senate - is it still possible.

[JoeF]

"Everybody who is not from India or China so far is getting a special treatment so far."

No, they don't. Everybody is subject to the country quotas. Nobody gets "special treatment."
With your argument, there also should be no special treatment in DV for certain countries.
Where is your support for allowing people from the UK, for example, or from Bangla Desh, to participate in the visa lottery?

[JoeF]

@S: "This bill does not deal with illegals . This bill just reconfigures the way visas are allocated ."

And screwing people, lots of people, in the process.

"Amnesty is different beast"

Dream has nothing to do with amnesty.

[S]

"If you don't like Dream to be attached to it, then you logically must oppose the whole bill..."

This bill does not deal with illegals . This bill just reconfigures the way visas are allocated . Amnesty is different beast , Proponents of Amnesty have tried and failed so many times so far.

[S]

"Of course people are getting screwed because of it.
Everybody who is not from India or China is getting screwed."

Everybody who is not from India or China so far is getting a special treatment so far. This bill ends it . Employers dont consider country origin while choosing employees.

[JoeF]

@s:"That is what attaching Dream to this bill does . "help me, screw everyone else""

Just as this bill screws everybody who is not from India or China. Same thing. Just different people.
If you don't like Dream to be attached to it, then you logically must oppose the whole bill...

[JoeF]

"No one is getting screwed because of this"

Of course people are getting screwed because of it.
Everybody who is not from India or China is getting screwed.

[S]

"Because I don't subscribe to "help me, screw everyone else" point of view?"

That is what attaching Dream to this bill does . "help me, screw everyone else"

[Sa]

"Because I don't subscribe to "help me, screw everyone else" point of view?"

No one is getting screwed because of this . This bill just removes the unfairness of country quotas in EB immigration. This bill increses the country caps in FB immigration.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

Why do you find my comments interesting? Because I don't subscribe to "help me, screw everyone else" point of view?

[Anon]

LNLW, I find your comments quite interesting. Well, the whole point of this bill is First-Come First-Serve.

If 300k Latin and Central Americans are added to EB3, so be it! So what priority date do you think they will use? The dates their parents entered the country illegally or the day they enter the queueing system. I think you are biased and you know it.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

First, the Senate has its own bills and may vote whichever way they like. Second, who says 3012 alone has better chances than being paired up with the DREAM act?

And of course it would be a really interesting karmic retribution if DREAM Act and 3012 passed together, with DREAM Act recipients having to file in EB3, adding 300K Latin and Central American nationals to the category. It would show how commited people are to being treated equal.

[George Chell]

Of course, does it have a great chance of passing the House tomorrow?

[George Chell]

Charles "the Ass" Grassley will try to kill it, driving more jobs to Canada or to the incubator. He is as dumb and stupid as it comes for a Republican non-racist and he is not racist! Just stupid as is Bernie "the Braindead" Sanders....but then again may be he has his own agenda..perhaps if jobs go to Montreal from the Silicon Valley, some of the people from Montreal may spend their money in Vermont which they wont do if jobs are in far away California. May be Sanders has secret agreement with the Canadians!

[S]

"And having legalization attached would be a no-no for this bill, how? Everyone has their own agenda. At least Durbin is trying to provide some additional benefits. This bill is about re-dividing, not adding."

Because , Amnesty will go nowhere in the senate or house. They did not do anything to address legalization when they have super majority in the Senate , controlled the house and the white house.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

And having legalization attached would be a no-no for this bill, how? Everyone has their own agenda. At least Durbin is trying to provide some additional benefits. This bill is about re-dividing, not adding.

[S]

We just have to wait and see what Durbins and Grassleys of the Senate would do. Durbin is known for pushing/attaching his legalization agenda (Dream ) with every immigration bill.