Negotiations with Grassley Over Priority Date Bill Falter

Readers of this blog have been having a feisty debate over HR 3012 in the comments and I'm sure this news will reignite the conversation. As many of you know, Senator Grassley (R-Iowa) has placed a hold on 3012. A hold is not fatal, but it definitely slows the process down and makes it a lot harder to pass a bill. Several supporters of HR 3012 were negotiating with Senator Grassley to try and get him to back down. Not surprisingly, Senator Grassley wanted several things in return and they proved just too much. For one, he wanted the provision that raised per country family category limits to 15% dropped. He then wanted to re-establish a per country limit in the employment-based categories to 15%. Beyond that, he wanted to kill the green card lottery with no reallocation of those green card numbers (in other words, just shrink the overall green card numbers by 55,000 per year) and, finally, to include the infamous Durbin-Grassley-Sanders H-1B amendment which would impose massive fees on H-1B applications and make the H-1B process closely resemble the PERM labor certification process. I'll report more as I learn more. 

Comments

[Limbo]

Somebody made an interesting find here:

http://www.dotnews.com/2011/brown-backing-bill-open-10500-employment-visas-irish-immigrants

It says the Senator Brown sent a letter to Grassley on Dec 23rd (during senate winter recess) asking him to include Irish E3 "in negotiations to advance another immigration-related bill". That has to be standalone HR3012 or the senate equivalent bill, not S.1983 which already contains Irish E3.

Therefore, it looks like negotiation for HR3012 are still very much ongoing. Does that mean that Reid will honor Grassley's hold, and has told the parties to get back to negotiating in committee and forget about pushing it prematurely with rule 14? Sure looks like it.

[Paul Wilson]

@Venky

>> And on an interesting note, Chinese CP count is more than 6000, about twice that of the AOS demand. Did you take that into account in your China threads or posts???

The NVC inventory that you quoted indeed shows a demand of 6,000 visas from China. However, you should note that this is not broken down by priority dates (as the link you sent states), hence these 6,000 persons can be with PDs ranging from 2004 to 2011.

Since the 6,000 applications are spread over a period of 7 years and we are only interested in the first 2 of these 7 years, it is very unlikely that there will be lots of them with PDs before 2006. This is for several reasons: first, CP didn't become fashionable until 2005-2006 when the wild swings in cutoff dates began and lawyers started advising to do CP. Second, CP apps usually tend to lean more heavily towards more recent PDs because they are regularly checked and refreshed---unlike USCIS, NVC automatically discards old application to which a candidate fails to respond to requests for info update/refresh within a few months.

In our calculations we were estimating Chinese applications until roughly Feb, 2006, and the numbers there are really low. The 6,000 apps in NVC will, for the above mentioned reasons, contribute a negligible amount to the backlog. Hence, the overall conclusion still stands: China is on its way to become current (EB2) and in line with ROW (EB3) within one year.

[venky321]

I am just giving you the numbers that were published by USCIS.
And again, this is only the backlog till 2007. Sure there might be some cases who did not file for the I-485 when they had a chance in 2007; but I wouldn't expect that to substantially change the numbers.

We can only guess about the demand after 2007 for India or for ROW. But Indian backlog will only hold up ROW till the priority date catches up, which is till 2006. After that Indian, China and ROW will move together, based on priority date. So someone in 2006 ROW will get his Green card before an Indian who applied in 2007.

Even in the worst case scenario (which is very unlikely IMO) if there are 200K Indians in the backlog till 2011 in EB3, that is an extra 5 years of wait for EB3 as a whole (200,000 / 40,000).

[Limbo]

I wonder if any of the geniuses who put together HR3012 thought about the fact that with the huge infusion of visas to EB3 China, it could easily surpass EB3 ROW during the transition when they are guaranteed about 20,000 visas. EB3 China is only a little over a year behind ROW (15 and 1/2 months to be exact) as of Jan 2012 visa bulletin, and will likely catch up even more in Feb bulletin due to the very light demand.

I can't see USCIS allowing China EB3 to pass ROW EB3. That would be a bloody embarrassment since they are supposedly so hard done by compared to ROW because of the diversity caps. So then what happens? They stall out at the ROW cutoff and wait for the India backlog to clear, which will take years.

Maybe I wasn't at the top of my class, but after reaching graduate level in math and comp sci, you have an eye for when stuff doesn't add up, like your estimate of EB3 India backlog. Just presenting your guess over and over again doesn't change anything.

[venky321]

The bottom line is Indian demand will add 3-4 years of waiting time to EB3. While I don't minimize the hardship this might cause to some people especially those in 2006 and very close to getting a Green card; to say that ROW applications will be put on hold for more than 5 years is just false, simply put.

As far as China is concerned; it would probably hurt them a little bit in EB3, by about 1-2 years, but would help them by about the same in EB2.

[venky321]

You are being deliberately obtuse I think. That is the I-485 inventory; i.e. AOS numbers. And here is a count of NVC cases, i.e. CP.

http://immigrationroad.com/green-card-tracker/immigrant-visa-consular-processing-inventory-nvc.php

Indian EB3 is at 21,119 for CP cases.

So the total is around 72 K; actually less than the 80K that I used earlier. Ofcourse I would except you to reject any evidence that doesn't suit your agenda, even if it is right in front of your eyes.

And on an interesting note, Chinese CP count is more than 6000, about twice that of the AOS demand. Did you take that into account in your China threads or posts???

[Limbo]

Venky,

If you don't understand that those numbers are not the total demand for all AOS and CP, then you must be smoking something.

[venky321]

Darn, I can't make this any clearer. You just need to look at this pdf document on page 4. It clearly says the pending I-485 inventory for EB3 I until July 2007 is a little over 51,000.

http://www.uscis.gov/USCIS/Green%20Card/Green%20Card%20Through%20a%20Job/I-485%20Employment-Based%20Inventory%20Statistics/EB%20I-485%20Pending%20Inventory%20as%20of%20October%2001%202011.pdf

Just look at it!

[Limbo]

Venky,

The data published by USCIS is never straight forward nor easy to interpret. It's like me (trained in math and computer science) looking at an x-ray and trying to give medical advice. Let's leave it to the experts.

[venky321]

I don't claim to be an expert at predicting movement dates; but I just want to shoot down outlandish claims that are made. In this case, basically that ROW will be on hold for 5 + years while 200 K Indian applications are processed.

And besides with 40 K allocation per year; over 7 years, 280 K applicants can be processed. Which is why 8-9 years, including 2 years to clear the EB3 I backlog till 2006 seems reasonable to me.

[venky321]

I posted the link to the USCIS website itself. Did you even look at the link? These are not my numbers; they come from USCIS itself.

80K is the backlog till July 2007. 51,000 of those are pending I-485s for EB3 I. Again, so there is no confusion for you; these are the numbers published by USCIS up till July 2007. I don't have an official link for the number of consular processing applicants from India, but I've seen in more than one place that the total (I485 + CP) is 80K. Again, so you are not confused; this is till July 2007 ONLY!

Now, to consider applications beyond July 2007; we are basically guessing, since we have no I-485 inventory published by USCIS. But looking the number of PERMS filed (this is published by DOL), and the EB2:EB3 split (this is guesswork, since there is no data), we can try to arrive at estimate for the number of I-485s that might be filed including dependents. Being EB2, I have looked at it; and I would be very surprised if there were that many EB3 Indian applicants beyond 2007 (130 K) so as to raise the total Indian backlog above 200 K. I will state this is my opinion and I cannot prove it; unlike the pre July 2007 80K backlog.

But inspite of that I can see a major flaw in your logic if I understand it correctly. You seem to be claiming that ROW applications will stop processing for 5+ years until 200 K Indian applicants have been processed. But I have shown that the pre January 2006 (the Indians with a priority date before the current ROW cut off) backlog is less than 80 K, probably closer to 60K. These are the only Indian applicants that will be processed first while ROW is on hold; and this will not take longer than 2 years, if 85-90% of EB3 visas go to India.

After Jan 1st 2006, ROW and India will be processed together based on priority date; and even assuming your worst case scenario; there are an excess of 100 K + Indian applicants in the queue (I really doubt it); I dont know ROW demand besides that it is about 40 K between Jan 2006 and July 2007 (USCIS numbers), then are Consular Processing applicants , this could be a fairly large number as well, considering the 40K + in the Phillipines. I don't know the total number, but I dont think my 8-9 waiting period is too far off; counting the 2 year wait while the EB3 I backlog from 2003-2005 is cleared.

But I will say that it is false that HR3012 will hold up ROW for 5+ years, even in the worst case scenario.

[Limbo]

One more proof that your numbers are crap. There are 140k visas for EB each year. EB3 gets 1/3 of those. Now even the most optimistic estimates are for a 9 year wait for anyone applying for EB3 today if HR3012 passes. 45k/yr EB3 allotment x 9 years = 400k plus cases. Now you are saying India has a blacklog of a paltry 80k (snicker), that would mean ROW would have a backlog of 320k as we speak!!! You expect anyone in their right mind to believe that?

[Limbo]

Venky,

I posted the link to the article by NFAP that estimates the backlog at 210k. Who should I believe, a thinktank with a former senator and also former INS commissioner, or an amateur prognosticator at a blog with unknown credentials, and a huge conflict of interest? Hmmmmm, tough one :-)

Just using common sense, the numbers you give do not jive with the 1 week per month cut-off advance for India EB3.

[Mike]

It looks like Row is having 2 concerns about the bill. One is the phase out. That they can educate lawmakers to work out a compromise so that impact will be mild to moderate. Also instead of completely removing quota it can be increased to 30%. Though country quota looks like unfair but it is taking out one group's benefit thereby creating division. Instead a compromise will be better atleast for 5 years. But for this Rowers also should work on background to impress lawmakers.

[venky321]

What 200K EB3 Indian backlog? I have proven that the backlog till July 2007 is at the most 80 K including consular applications. Whatever the numbers are after that, they are almost certainly nowhere near 200K, even a cursory glance at the PERM data would show that. Anyhow, after Jan 1st 2006, ROW applicants will be processed along with Indians and the wait time for both will converge to about 8-9 years from the priority date; India will not not take most of the visas beyond the initial period of clearing the 2003-2005 backlog. Infact beyond this date I would think the majority of applicants would not be Indian, as a majority of Indians probably went the EB2 route after looking at the retrogression.

ROW folks are as bad, if not worse when it comes to fear mongering and spreading propaganda.

[Limbo]

Another bizarre consequence of HR3012. Someone pointed out that neither China or India can get more than 85% of the 85% given to them in the first year of transition, or more than 85% of the 90% in the second two years of transition, so apparently China will get some visas regardless during the transition.

Since China EB3 has very light demand, their cutoff will easily reach ROWs current cut-off in less than a year. Then what happens? If China is allowed to pass ROW, EB3 China will be current within another year while ROW rots indefinitely at Jan 2006. If China is not allowed to pass ROW, then they will rot along with ROW for the many years it takes to process the 200k Indian EB3 backlog.

[Limbo]

Paul Wilson,

Agreed. I think we all had the impression that it sailed through the house without any real thought, research, expert analysis or testimony, and we were 100% RIGHT!

How such a serious matter affecting so many people could have been taken so lightly is shocking.

[Paul Wilson]

Limbo,

>> You know I was skeptical at first but when I did the math, I came to the exact same conclusion as you. HR3012 will be as bad for China EB3 as it is for ROW, if not worse!! That was a shock to me.

Yeah. It is shocking! The same happened to me: I was just checking out the numbers when it hit me that India was completely alone in the HR 3012 fight. Even though every Indian pays lip service to China and states that "India AND China are the most backlogged, etc.", it seems they will really stab them in the back this time, because China won't even have the 15% reserve as it is still considered "one of the top two backlogged countries".

China will get current within a year and then it will be sent to the back of the queue by India, and it won't even be able to take advantage of the laughable "phase-in" provision---15%, 10%, and 10% relief for the wretched masses from all over the world.

This bill is so seriously flawed---I wonder if anybody really bothered to do any research and calculations to gauge the effects. And to think that those drones in Congress just voted for it, and nobody stopped to think that even the effective date (Oct 2011) was wrong, and by the time the bill might possibly become law, the fiscal year will be more than half way gone.

[venky321]

I thought the ROW line was that the 70 year wait was blatant propaganda!

Anyhow here is the USCIS I-485 inventory. This is from the USCIS website and therefore accurate. This shows the number of people who have applied for an I-485 (many did when the dates were current in 2007) and are waiting for a visa. Since each dependent has to file an I-485, this definitely includes dependents. As you will see, the number for EB-3 India is roughly 51,000; this will not include demand after 2007 since no one after July 2007 could have filed for an I-485.

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=16551543455e5210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=16551543455e5210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD

It might be that the 79 K number might include people who are currently waiting for consular processing. Nobody knows the number of I-485s that will be filed for applicants after 2007; but I just cant see it being 130 K (210K-80K), since most Indians after 2007 would have tried for EB2 if they were qualified.

In anycase, I still think the backlog till Jan 1st 2006 will be cleared in 2-3 years for EB3 I, after that the dates will be move again for EB 3 as a whol; and yes, it will be slower because Indians will no longer be restricted to just 3000 visas. But 2006 ROW people should still expect Green cards in 3-4 years. Beyond that, the wait time for everyone in EB 3 would roughly be about 8-9 from the priority date instead of the 6 years it is now.

[Limbo]

Here is an article that Mr. Siskind quoted:

"By establishing that fewer than 3,000 Indians are permitted green cards annually in the employment based third preference (EB-3) and estimating a backlog of 210,000 among Indian professionals in the category, the report is able to conclude an Indian sponsored today could wait 70 years for a green card."

http://www.nfap.com/pdf/DAY_OF_RELEASE.STEM_AND_EB_Family_Backlogs.pdf

I think the 210k number is accurate. This means the added delay would be many, many years for ROW, 5+ at least.

[venky321]

Okay, perhaps it is a bit more than 50 K. This forum (which has some very good analysis) estimates it at 79 K till 2007. This is I485 inventory, so it does include dependents.

http://www.qesehmk.org/forums/showthread.php?5-EB3-Predictions-amp-Calculations

[Limbo]

Venky, does that include dependents? I don't think so. With dependents it would be around 200k.

[venky321]

Its about 50,000 up till July 2007 as per USCIS inventory; so lets assume its 40,000 till 2006. Assuming EB3 I gets about 30 K visas a year, after HR 3012 passes; the total EB 3 is 40,000, 15% is reserved for ROW during the transition; and there is also the hidden demand and applicants under consular processing.

Still, this backlog should be cleared up within 2 years at the most I would think. After which EB3 as a whole should probably move at about the same pace it is now, or a little slower. So 2006 EB3 ROW applicants should get their Green cards within 3-4 years as I said.

[Limbo]

Paul Wilson,

You know I was skeptical at first but when I did the math, I came to the exact same conclusion as you. HR3012 will be as bad for China EB3 as it is for ROW, if not worse!! That was a shock to me.

I had no idea the demand from China was so small, only 2900 cummulative demand for EB3 before Jan 1,2006, that would easily clear within a year, then china would be screwed exactly like ROW, Mex and Phil EB!

In fact, the way HR3012 is written, I don't see how China EB3 will get a single visa for the first several years if HR3012 passes. They aren't reserved any visas the first three years, and their cutoff is years ahead of EB3 India!! This appears to be a major flaw in HR3012.

[Limbo]

venky says,

"But they get furious at the prospect of themselves waiting only an additional 3-4 years."

Just curious where you get that number from? What is the total demand for EB3I including dependents prior to Jan 1 2006? EB3 China demand is negligible.

[Sa]

I dont think IV Is the one that decides what comes to floor and what legislation is passed.

[venky321]

I have not seen any 'compromise' posts from ROW people. Most have been about bashing Indians, backstabbing IV, how Indians are sub par and frauds, Indians stealing visas etc.

While I agree that IV should have tried to talk to ROW people about their concerns; the impression I get is that ROW are perfectly okay if Indians on EB 3 have to wait 20 or 30 years. But they get furious at the prospect of themselves waiting only an additional 3-4 years.

All that said, I good compromise would be to raise the quota, but not eliminate it, so that Indian EB3s can get their Green cards in a much shorter time, like less than 10 years, while ROW folks might have to wait a year longer.

[Paul Wilson]

>> The only thing that disappoints me is that neither side can find it in themselves to discuss compromise solutions; like say raising the quota to 30%, which would reduce the wait times for EB3 I drastically as they only get 3000 at this time; while only raising the wait time for EB3ROW slightly.

This is the real problem. Many ROW people would be willing to compromise, but there was no attempt from IV at that. They didn't invite anyone from ROW nor got their opinions and concerns. Furthermore, the bill appears to have been purposefully crafted to cause as much damage as possible. The retroactive effective date of Oct 2011 makes the transition period of the first year meaningless, and then the aggressive 90% touted as a transition is practically a slap in the face.

[KCKasum]

EB3-ROWERS HAVE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF THIS UNFAIR QUOTA LOOPHOLE FOR MANY MANY YEARS. IT NEEDS TO CLOSE. THEY WOULD NOT HAVE THEIR PRIORITY DATE AT THE ADVANTAGEOUS DATE OF 2006 IF IT WAS NOT FOR THIS LOOPHOLE.

SORRY PAL, THIS LOOPHOLE HAS COST MANY EB3-I/C/M/P THEIR CAREERS AND OTHER HARDSHIPS WHILE YOU CRUISED THROUGH IT. SO STOP COMPLAINING.

[venky321]

The argument is getting really tiring. From an Indian point of view (I am one), this bill does bring fairness and hope to thousands of Indians whose Green card journey was a nightmare; while facing a decades long wait prospect for those from EB3-I.

I accept though that the way it is implemented causes a lot of hardship to some ROWers, some who might be months away from getting a Green card. So I dont blame them at all for opposing this bill as vociferously as they have.

The only thing that disappoints me is that neither side can find it in themselves to discuss compromise solutions; like say raising the quota to 30%, which would reduce the wait times for EB3 I drastically as they only get 3000 at this time; while only raising the wait time for EB3ROW slightly.

[Sa]

"I didn't say that. But if these people already got their greencards after porting to EB-2, or if they left the country and abandoned the applications, then they are not valid. Sooner or later, USCIS will remove/deny them, though I have heard there were cases of people who went back to India and heard their EB-3 was approved and the greencard mailed. Of course, this is a dicey situation, because as soon as they catch on the paperwork, they will revoke those cards. All I'm saying is that there is a lot of inefficiency in the system."

If people get promoted and get another I 140 in EB2 does not mean that they will have another adjustment application. One person can file only one 485 application at any point of time and there should not be any duplicate adjustment of status applications.

I agree on one thing though , there is a lot of inefficiency in the system. USCIS knows only one thing , how to raise fees every few years and waste those billions of dollars in "improving the processing times" that never seem to happen.

[Paul Wilson]

@RR

>> What is the source for this statement? Because as I look at the Jan 2012 visa bulletin released by the DOS, the cutoff for EB3 C is Oct 15, 2004 and the cutoff for EB3 ROW is Feb 1, 2006.

You are correct--my bad. I should've said "will have the same cutoff date". I was looking at the inventory data report from Oct 2011, where the total for EB-3 China is 3,102, with 552 in 2007 and 1,079 in 2006 (78 in Jan). Since the PD for ROW in EB-3 is Feb 1, 2006, and the Chinese inventory prior to Feb 1 2006 is 1,549, and China usually consumes around 3,000-3,500 EB-3 visas based on the annual reports, then EB-3 China cut-off date will reach ROW really soon. There is only a difference of 1,549 visas between them, as opposed to EB-3I which needs 35,000 visas to reach the ROW date.

[Paul Wilson]

>> Even if they change jobs and get promoted does not mean that their applications are invalid . You just wish these applications get rejected by USCIS to prove your point

I didn't say that. But if these people already got their greencards after porting to EB-2, or if they left the country and abandoned the applications, then they are not valid. Sooner or later, USCIS will remove/deny them, though I have heard there were cases of people who went back to India and heard their EB-3 was approved and the greencard mailed. Of course, this is a dicey situation, because as soon as they catch on the paperwork, they will revoke those cards. All I'm saying is that there is a lot of inefficiency in the system.

[RR]

@Paul Wilson

"EB-3 ROW and EB-3 C have the same cutoff date,"

What is the source for this statement? Because as I look at the Jan 2012 visa bulletin released by the DOS, the cutoff for EB3 C is Oct 15, 2004 and the cutoff for EB3 ROW is Feb 1, 2006.

I may be way off, but would you care to explain?

[Sa]

"it WILL become current really soon. "

The magic visa fairy at the work.

"Another question is how many of those EB-3I applications are really valid? There are people from 2002 in there, and now it's almost 2012. I find it really hard to believe that from 50,000 people (up to 2007) in EB-3I, all of them are still there waiting and in almost 10 years nobody changed their company or got promoted, nobody refiled to EB-2, nobody left the country to go to greener pastures, etc"

Waiting since dec 2002 .

Even if they change jobs and get promoted does not mean that their applications are invalid . You just wish these applications get rejected by USCIS to prove your point

[Sa]

"Here is an excellent post from Trackitt "

I think it would be better if we don't quote trackitt here.

[Paul Wilson]

This is just amazing that these guys keep claiming that they're fighting for fairness to both India and China, when the reality is that HR 3012 will significantly hurt the Chinese and will push mostly Chinese people back in the line. Basically, the majority of visas that India will be stealing by means of HR 3012 will come from China.

EB-3 ROW and EB-3 C have the same cutoff date, so as far as EB-3 is concerned, they can be merged. I don't really know why EB-2C has the same PD as EB-2I, but I assume that's because there isn't much demand data from 2009 and later, so DOS is trying to be conservative. Given that in 2010 China used 6,505 EB-2 visas as opposed to the 19,961 given to EB-2I, I expect EB-2C to become current within a few months. When the China EB categories disappear and become merged into ROW, all the deception that was used to push HR 3012 will become really obvious. Boy, will the Chinese who were duped to campaign for HR 3012 be pissed!

[Limbo]

Here is an excellent post from Trackitt from an immigrant from China. Captures the essence of HR3012 perfectly.

"Ok, let me answer your question so that everyone else can understand; I am not saying that current system is good and it's fair for everyone. I know what you are getting at, you are saying that it's currently unfair for India/China and I failed to see that point because the 7% cap is applied for every country. While I agree the status quo of the immigration system is broken, the notion that this bill is the solution is simply BS. You know it, I know it. US needs more immigrants to compete with the competitive world today so they really need to take in more immigrants. Hence, IV should've pushed their agenda based on that fact and should've lobbied hard for the visa capture or visa increase.

Now I know many of you would jump in and say this is not the right climate for visa capture or increase in visa numbers but hold your horses. While the actual unemployment is more than 12% in this country, the unemployment rate for those who have a Bachelors (or Masters) degree in STEM is close to 3% (or 2% with masters). But you and me know that IV is always want to find short cuts and not interested in finding real solutions, hence I rest my case."

[Paul Wilson]

So back to the response to your question and your previous analysis... Yes, you are correct that EB-3I is currently in a really sorry state, but since EB-2I is using 50% of the whole EB-2 + EB-1 spillover, it WILL become current really soon. Also there aren't that many applications in the later years (after 2007). EB-3 won't start moving until there is spillover, and only then will it start clearing. However, it won't take 70 years.

Another question is how many of those EB-3I applications are really valid? There are people from 2002 in there, and now it's almost 2012. I find it really hard to believe that from 50,000 people (up to 2007) in EB-3I, all of them are still there waiting and in almost 10 years nobody changed their company or got promoted, nobody refiled to EB-2, nobody left the country to go to greener pastures, etc. and given that on top of everything, we had two economic recessions in a row (the IT crash and then the housing bubble), and before 2007 there was no visa fiasco with EAD/AP/AC21 benefits for everybody. How many of the people really bother to withdraw their old applications when they leave the country or get their green-card through EB-2, and how good is USCIS at keeping track of that? If we look at PERM data, and if expired PERM certificates are any guidance, we can expect a high abandonment rate of applications, so it may just be a matter of USCIS to clean their mess for EB-3I to advance significantly even before the spillovers happen...

[Paul Wilson]

Ok. Let's look at some numbers in the 2010 usage reports.

http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY10AnnualReport-TableV.pdf

EB-3 India has used roughly 3,000 visas. The EB-3 usage total for Asia is 19,000 and the total for the whole Europe is 4,000 visas.

EB-2 India has used roughly 20,000 visas. The EB-2 usage total for Asia is 40,000 and the total for the whole Europe is 6,000 visas.

Do you still want to continue claiming that white, privileged Europeans are taking all the visas and pushing you behind in line? It seems that Europe consumes a very small amount.

The biggest demand is in Asia. If HR 3012 passes, the majority of the people hurt will be from Asia, and it will be people from China, the Philippines, and Korea, who will be pitted against India. It is strange how IV was trying to sell HR 3012 to the Chinese as the next best thing after hot water and telling them how it is very good for them and how they'll get their greencards in 1 year if it passes. Some naive guys even translated HR 3012 propaganda posters to Chinese...

If you look at the numbers, you will see that EB2-I and EB-3I use more than two times the number of visas that the whole European continent uses---23,000 vs. 10,000 visas (and that given that USCIS geography education is lacking and they seem to think that many Asian countries like Uzbekistan are in Europe...)

[Sa]

"Correct answer: 18 months."

Looks like you have a problem with that , Unless EB2I stays current EB3ROW will not get any spill over and there will not be a significant movement in EB3ROW. EB3I is f...d up anyways :)

[Sid]

Forgive me for assuming that you have an interest in learning anything. This thread is all yours. F*rt away.

[Limbo]

"How much has EB2I advanced in the last 3 months?"

"Yada yada yada, obfuscation, going off on tangent, avoidance"

Nope.

Correct answer: 18 months.

[Sid]

"How much has EB2I advanced in the last 3 months?"

Not much in terms of approvals actually, considering that the USCIS does not approve a lot of new I-485 applications within 3 months. Once, the I-485 pipeline has been fed for 6-12 months, which is the usual time for a new I-485 approval (assuming no retrogression), we'll know. The DOS does not know how many applicants are out there after July 2007 and the whole point of advancing the PDs is to collect enough new applications to feed the USCIS. You don't have to take my word for it. Ask any knowledgeable immigration lawyer - Greg for example.

[Limbo]

"The same magic fairy that says "EB2/Eb India will be current soon anyway within few months without HR3012".

How much has EB2I advanced in the last 3 months?

[Sa]

"So the hundreds of thousands of EB3I cases will be cleared up in a few months? Wow, the magic visa fairy will be hard at work."

The same magic fairy that says "EB2/Eb India will be current soon anyway within few months without HR3012".

[Limbo]

"If ROW has to wait few more months what is a big deal? "

So the hundreds of thousands of EB3I cases will be cleared up in a few months? Wow, the magic visa fairy will be hard at work.

[Sa]

"Seriously??? You fail to understand a simple analogy, and yet you try to lecture others."

You are the one who has been lecturing how India is poor and poverty in India has something do with country caps.

Your analogy is over the top and hyperbolic, Asking for a change in the law is not "mugging somebody in the street, stabbing them with a knife" .

[Paul Wilson]

>> Now Indians are compared to thugs and gang members ( I wonder which immigrant community has most gang members ) .

Seriously??? You fail to understand a simple analogy, and yet you try to lecture others.

[RR]

LNLW,

Yes, I agree. When you don't have anything to validate or justify your standpoint, the last resort is to act holier-than-thou and look down on thers.

[Sa]

"...They just plan to take some of ROW visa numbers, and distriubute them among themseves."

As you said , they were given to ROW by the law and they could be given to anyone else by changing the law. Laws change all the time , 245i added 5 years of wait time for labor . I just took it in stride . If ROW has to wait few more months what is a big deal?

[USC]

Hint: Puerto Ricans are US Citizens.

This discussion is degenerating into nonsense and trading of insults.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

RR, no you did not hit any nerve, but I agree it is really frustrating to talk to people who ask the same question over and over again as if they expect a different answer, and don't even care to read your statements before writing a bunch of uninformed blubbering.

[Sa]

Yes , that hurts , doesn't it? If you think you can poke people in the eye and get away with it , you are mistaken. People can be equally mean.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"Now Indians are compared to thugs and gang members ( I wonder which immigrant community has most gang members ) ."

Oh, the slight innuendo into which nationality is deservier... of course coming from a guy who claims that people should be treated equally [crappy] regardless of the nationality.

[RR]

@LNLW

Look like I touched a nerve there, you seem to be getting riled.

Apparently reading the question 300 times, as you claim I have posted it, didn't make you realize what I was asking. I didn't ask you to confirm that I am no better or no worse than any other ROW applicant. I am asking WHY an ROW applicant should get his GC years before me for the same skill set and job description. But then I guess I know why you are refusing to answer THAT question.

"Life is unfair. Those born in Puerto Rico are treated differently than anyone else. Are they better workers? Do they deserve more? Why? Are you going to fight for Puerto Ricans to have to file in EB? No? Why?"

You want to talk about other immigrant groups? Let's take Puerto Ricans, as you did. Are they working at jobs that sponser GCs and have they applied under the EB process? Then yes, they should be in the EB pipeline. Do you think they don't deserve it? I don't care what your background is and where you come from. If you are qualified and lucky enough to have an employer sponsoring you, you should get in line, period, and wait until the people who applied before you get their benefits. We are talking specifically about EB immigration here. Guess that's too difficult a concept for you to understand (or refuse to understand, more likely).

You seem to be stuck on 3012. I care damn all if 3012 passes or not. You say it won't, I'll take your word for it. If, however, 3012 does become law, then I am sure you'll get over it. Life is unfair, as you say.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"People are just trying to change the same law that treats some people with special privileges , no Indian is planning to rob anyone from ROW."

...They just plan to take some of ROW visa numbers, and distriubute them among themseves.

This is the bottom line.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

No, Indians are not gang members. A better analogy would be someone who invites you to team up and earn some money together. After the project has not worked out, they tell you since you have more money then them, you need to give some to them, since it was unfair for you to have it in the first place. The issue of fairness is irrelevant here - what is relevant is that your "fellow immimgrants" resorted to taking away your visa numbers to better their situation.

[Sa]

"ROWs did not take those visas away from immigrants. They were given them by the law. What kind of "fellow immgrants" corner you and demand your green cards? You expect a lot of goodwill of someone you are trying to rob "

People are just trying to change the same law that treats some people with special privileges , no Indian is planning to rob anyone from ROW.

[Sa]

"This is a bit like mugging somebody in the street, stabbing them with a knife, and then when the victim calls the police and you get caught, saying "But this is so unfair! I would have thought there will be some resistance, but he is a fellow human being and he can understand the pain I'm going through since I'm a lot poorer than him.""

Now Indians are compared to thugs and gang members ( I wonder which immigrant community has most gang members ) .

[Paul W]

>> I would have thought, yes, there will be some resistance, but they are fellow immigrants as well, they can understand the pain that Indians are going through.

This is a bit like mugging somebody in the street, stabbing them with a knife, and then when the victim calls the police and you get caught, saying "But this is so unfair! I would have thought there will be some resistance, but he is a fellow human being and he can understand the pain I'm going through since I'm a lot poorer than him."

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"would have thought, yes, there will be some resistance, but they are fellow immigrants as well, they can understand the pain that Indians are going through."

You seem to have zero emotional intelligence. ROWs did not take those visas away from immigrants. They were given them by the law. What kind of "fellow immgrants" corner you and demand your green cards? Even if you got them unfairly, you did not take them away from anybody. You expect a lot of goodwill of someone you are trying to rob.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

""The 3012 approach is not only destined to fail, it will cause wiudespread damage."

A little while back, this is what you said, and I quote -

"I think 3012 will make very little difference."

Which is it? Can you be consistent in your statements?"

I am, and you are too lazy to read. Go back and actually read my whole statement on what exactly the damage that I meant. I am not going to explain it to you for the 20th time.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"Here is my question. Answer this if can. What makes an ROW applicant so much better than an Indian applicant based on the country of his birth that he should get his GC years before the Indian is even allowed to file his I485?"

How many times have you asked this question? Maybe it's a sign that you need to fully understand the answer.

Nothing makes an Inidian any worse. Are you just asking the question to get a token validation - you got it. Want it one more time - you, RR, are no worse than anyone from ROW just because you were born in India. Do you need to hear it one more time? Obviously, you asked the same question 300 times at least, and it would be a waste of my time to tell you the same thing 300 times, but I can do 3, just for you.

As a matter of political fight, it makes no sense to stand behind 3012 because it is not a good bill. It fixes an inch of a problem and makes a mile in damage. Life is unfair. Those born in Puerto Rico are treated differently than anyone else. Are they better workers? Do they deserve more? Why? Are you going to fight for Puerto Ricans to have to file in EB? No? Why? The real answer is because you are not going to get anywhere, and you are going to piss off many people in the meantime. The same with 3012.

The means are not worth the ends.

[RR]

@LNLW

"Everything IV has done in the last years is marred by a tacit agreement with anti's idea that immigration is bad for the country."

You keep carping on IV. Are all Indian immigrants represented by IV? That's like saying all Christians are represented by the Catholic Church. Let that go, and base your statements on principle.

Here is my question. Answer this if can. What makes an ROW applicant so much better than an Indian applicant based on the country of his birth that he should get his GC years before the Indian is even allowed to file his I485?

[RR]

@LNLW

"The 3012 approach is not only destined to fail, it will cause wiudespread damage."

A little while back, this is what you said, and I quote -

"I think 3012 will make very little difference."

Which is it? Can you be consistent in your statements?

I never said I didn't expect a peep. People having a privilege above others will always be reluctant to give it up. I will fight for my cause, which is to remove said privilege, and you can fight to keep status quo.

What I didn't expect was the complete inability of ROW to stand in our shoes and give us a fair hearing. What I didn't anticipate was the sheer amount of hate-mongering heaped towards India and Indians. I would have thought, yes, there will be some resistance, but they are fellow immigrants as well, they can understand the pain that Indians are going through. But no, Indians were vilified all over the net on immigration fora, Grassley was congratulated as the white knight who saved the US from an Indian invasion, I can go on. The racial hatred and bigotry were a BIG surprise. You only have scroll down the screen to see a statement like 'Indians have no problem waiting for 5 years, Germans will not". But then, I guess I was naive, huh?

[Sa]

If country quotas are so good why don't we have them in Dream as well as any other legalization schemes.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"Also, I am curious, where has anyone said that more immigration is bad? Did anyone ask for reduced immigration levels? Please specify your sources for said statement, because that's what your are implying."

Read my discussion with A&S from two days ago. He admitted that none of the measures that IV introduced in the last years defended immgration as being good for the country. The rationale for the recapture bill specifically stated that goal is not to increase immgration but to adjust for the "inefficiencies" of the USCIS - yes, as in "we know and agree that we are bad people, but we were promised those green cards, so let's deliver on the promise". As Paul mentioned, it seems to be a specific point about 3012 that "no additional visa numbers are intorduced".

Everything IV has done in the last years is marred by a tacit agreement with anti's idea that immigration is bad for the country.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"Really? It was the Indians who went to NumbersUSA and FAIR? It was the Indians who sent thank you notes to Grassley when he put a hold on HR3012? It was the Indians who smeared all over the immigration fora that bringing more Indians (who already here BTW) into the US will cause irreversible and catastrophic shifts in the population demographics here and must be stopped at all costs? Hmmm, those must be some really vocal Indians that I didn't know about."

If you for a second thought that Indians are going to be able to take numbers away from any other backlogged group, and nobody is going make a peep... it's some good weed you are smoking. And yes, in case you never noticed, there are people among immigrants who think they must be treated better than other [include the group of your choice - Hispanic, EB3, Indian, Irish, ROW, illegal, etc] immigrants. Indians are far from being an exception to this rule.

The 3012 approach is not only destined to fail, it will cause wiudespread damage. But you don't care about my answers, anyway.

[Sa]

""IV already sold their a**es to them by agreeing that more immigration is bad""

First IV sold their mothers and now they sold their backs ....YIKES , these are the people who preach about civility ..

[Sid]

Still haven't seen a response to my analysis in this thread -

http://blogs.ilw.com/gregsiskind/2011/12/negotiations-with-grassley-over-priority-date-bill-falter.html?cid=6a00d834521fa969e20154388f5b8e970c#comment-6a00d834521fa969e20154388f5b8e970c

[Sid]

@Paul Wilson

If you cannot support your argument with numbers and analysis, don't bother to comment.

[RR]

@Paul Wilson

"IV already sold their a**es to them by agreeing that more immigration is bad"

I think I have already repeated a couple of times that I don't care what IV does or doesn't do. For me, its the principle.

Also, I am curious, where has anyone said that more immigration is bad? Did anyone ask for reduced immigration levels? Please specify your sources for said statement, because that's what your are implying.

Asking for a FIFO queue which normalizes wait times for everyone is wrong? Why should you get your benefits when you have the same skills as I do, but are applying years after me purely based on the country of your birth? How does being born in a given country, an incident on which you had control and didn't contribute to, give you a leg up on fulfilling your duties at a job better than I can?

[Paul Wilson]

>> Obviously, bigger difference to EB3-I because it doesn't get any spillover and has the worst backlog.

Yes, of course. It will moved ahead by 6 to 12 months, and then it will continue to drag along one week at a time per bulletin. I'm sure the EB-3 Indians immensely grateful, jumping from joy, throwing flowers at you, and kissing your feet for the great relief that you have brought them.

[Paul Wilson]

>> Really? It was the Indians who went to NumbersUSA and FAIR? It was the Indians who sent thank you notes to Grassley when he put a hold on HR3012?

No, but you know what? With the tactics that IV uses against their fellow immigrants, they are no different than the anti-immigrants from FAIR and NumbersUSA from a moral point of view. In this particular case, FAIR and NumbersUSA are the lesser evil, and let's face it, IV already sold their a**es to them by agreeing that more immigration is bad and that "not a single new visa will be introduced!" to the system.

[Sid]

@LNLW
"I think 3012 will make very little difference."

That is more indicative of your lack of effort/analytical skills than the bill itself. Anyone who has looked at the backlog numbers and analyzed the effect of HR3012 knows that it'll make a big difference to both EB2 and EB3-I/C. Obviously, bigger difference to EB3-I because it doesn't get any spillover and has the worst backlog.

[RR]

@LNLW

"Well, that's the oldest trick in the book - accuse your opponent of what you are guilty of. Thank you for confirming."

Really? It was the Indians who went to NumbersUSA and FAIR? It was the Indians who sent thank you notes to Grassley when he put a hold on HR3012? It was the Indians who smeared all over the immigration fora that bringing more Indians (who already here BTW) into the US will cause irreversible and catastrophic shifts in the population demographics here and must be stopped at all costs? Hmmm, those must be some really vocal Indians that I didn't know about.

I don't give a damn what IV is doing. I am not a member of IV, never have been and I don't like their recruiting and fundraising policies. If their aims coincide with what I am looking at, fine. Otherwise they can their thing and I will do mine. Lumping all Indian immigrants with IV is just generalizing and ignorant.

In any case, I, as an individual, am fighting for a principle. The principle that I, with my skills and abilities, should get the benefits that I am waiting in line for, before someone who got in line years after me, purely on the accident of born or not born in a given country. Tell me what's unfair in that.

[Legal and no longer waiting]

"Let's start with that because you seem to be of the opinion that eliminating country caps is going to somehow destablise the whole immigration structure in the US."

No, I am not, and never I have said that on any occasion. I think 3012 will make very little difference.

What I said (and please go back and read again) is that the fight over 3012 will destabilize the immgrant community. This discussion is a testament to that.

"With the amount of rancor that ROW has generated over HR3012, with all the mud thrown out at India and Indians (you know this to be true), have you ever stopped to think that after the dust has settled, Indian immigrants will be needed to work towards other causes as well? Things like visa recapture, not counting dependents against GC numbers, anything at all? i don't think so. You opted for a scorched earth policy by getting into bed with anti-immigrant entities like Grassley and NumbersUSA. So you want to talk again about burning your bridges?"

Well, that's the oldest trick in the book - accuse your opponent of what you are guilty of. Thank you for confirming.

The ROW is not initiating the fight, it's initiating a defense. IV (aka Indian Voice) is initiating the offense. If you thought there is nobody in ROW who would stand for status quo, then you found out something new. For IV, 3012 is more important than any other bills that have a shot of solving the problem. They want to throw everything under the bus. Scorched earth is IV's strategy, whether they have done it knowingly or not. For that, the antis are ready to give them the token "appreciation" of saying, ok, you are as good as ROW. That's all you are fighting for.

"What is the price that YOU are willing to pay to keep things civil and expect help from Indians on any future endeavors? What is the opportunity cost for YOU?"

I am not willing to pay anything for 3012. For something worthy, I am willing to fight. For this - I am neither fighting for or against. But the damage is done. It was the fight over nothing, and everybody came out wounded. Thank you, IV.

[RR]

@LNLW

"How much are you willing to pay to move EB2 India by 2 years ahead if you know it will move forward significanly in the next year anyway?"

Guess now the line is "EB2 will move significantly", rather than "EB2 will be current in a year", eh? Facts have a silly way of doing that, don't they?

You keep asking about the price IC folks are willing to pay. And I am going to repeat myself. What is ROW willing to pay? Let's start with that because you seem to be of the opinion that eliminating country caps is going to somehow destablise the whole immigration structure in the US.

I'll quote you - "Have you ever heard of carefully picking your battles?". With the amount of rancor that ROW has generated over HR3012, with all the mud thrown out at India and Indians (you know this to be true), have you ever stopped to think that after the dust has settled, Indian immigrants will be needed to work towards other causes as well? Things like visa recapture, not counting dependents against GC numbers, anything at all? i don't think so. You opted for a scorched earth policy by getting into bed with anti-immigrant entities like Grassley and NumbersUSA. So you want to talk again about burning your bridges?

The cost we are willing to pay you say? We are already paying that cost in the form of lost opportunities and instability and uncertainty in life. But I guess you don't want to acknowledge that, just like you didn't when I same thing before. Why bring that out, let's just gloss over it and keep crying wolf.

What is the price that YOU are willing to pay to keep things civil and expect help from Indians on any future endeavors? What is the opportunity cost for YOU?

[Legal and no longer waiting]

I am just going to quote myself. Is it so important to you to be in the same line as ROW RIGHT NOW, given that you WILL BE in the same line as ROW in a couple of years, that you will be willing to send the world on fire? To throw future immigrants under the bus?

Have you ever heard of carefully picking your battles? With the amount of effort IV spent on essentially validating that immigtation is bad for the country, I don't think so...

"The question is what you are willing to sucrifice to make the wait similar - in other words, are the ends worth the means? Are you willing to implode relationships among EB immigrants? How much time are you willing to devote to this goal as opposed to the goal of actually fixing immigration by increasing overall numbers? Are you willing to lose your allies? Are you willing to throw H1Bs under the bus?

Everything comes with a price. How much are you willing to pay to move EB2 India by 2 years ahead if you know it will move forward significanly in the next year anyway? How much are you willing to pay to move EB3 Inida ahead by 2 years if you know it is going to happen in 3-4 years, anyway? What's the opportunity cost?"

[Paul Wilson]

>> I already feel like Paul has patronizingly patted me on the ahead and told me that "it is OK, 5 years is fine for you, after all you are from India. The more important EB2 people from ROW on the other hand should not be made to wait even a day longer. For them 1 more year would be so prohibitive, that they would leave. For you, 5 years is just your birthright. Don't be uppity, know your place."

I didn't tell you that, but this is, in general, what you should expect people to tell you when you try to screw them.

Listen, we can argue forever, but the problem is very simple. There is a huge difference between something being fair in principle and something being fair in practice. HR 3012 may be fair in principle, but if implemented now it would be a nightmare for thousands of people. (Yes, I know you don't care about them, because they're privileged, undeserving, and you feel they owe you something, but please keep with me.) So, in practice HR 3012 in its current form and at this precise moment would be extremely unfair to everybody except one country.

Similarly, it can be argued that the current rules are fair in principle, because they don't specifically state that India had to be retrogressed (it could've been Germany or Russia, if they had had economic problems and extreme poverty, and if everybody had felt the necessity to emigrate from there). The law is quite general and doesn't pinpoint specific countries, after all. Yet somehow, the end result of the current rules doesn't seem very fair to you now that your country happens to meet the conditions to be capped under those rules, does it?

If you want to claim that HR 3012 is fair, then expect people to tell you that the current rules are fair too. Your approach will never work out because two wrongs never make a right, and you can't justify intentionally and purposefully screwing others by claiming that you have no other choice, that others have been privileged, or that your suffering justifies it all. It's also not OK to try and spread lies ("7% ONLY!!", "70 YEARS WAITS!! WOW!", "Businesses will die without HR 3012", etc.) trying to paint your situation as so desperate that congressmen will take pity on you, and at the same time expect people not to patronize you, etc.

We can keep arguing this way forever, until we all realize that the only way out of this situation is to find and work on a solution that is both fair in principle and fair in practice to everybody--something like recapture, exemptions, or some other form of increase in visa numbers.

[RR]

@Paul Wilson

Let's keep it that way. The holier-than-thou attitude is getting tiresome.

[Paul Wilson]

Sa>> Yes there are so many aspects of the system that are unfair and I don't have time and energy to fight all of them. I fight the ones that affect me first.

RR>> What has ROW ever done to change the status quo that you have been enjoying to help their fellow immigrants from IC apart from a shrug of the shoulders and a "too bad"?

No comment.

[RR]

@Limbo,

I was trying to put forth my point of view in my previous comments, but now I have to ask. What has ROW ever done to change the status quo that you have been enjoying to help their fellow immigrants from IC apart from a shrug of the shoulders and a "too bad"? Why should people from IC be mindful of your concerns at all, what have you done to change/improve the situation? You know the answer, but let me say it again - NOTHING.

Spare me from your "changing the rules in the middle of the game". It's been put to sleep multiple times. The rules were changed when 245(i) was introduced and buch of people were dumped into EB3, the rules were changed when PERM was introduced and a lot of labors applied prior to it got backlogged for years on end. How about we deal with those changes first? I'll agree to support grandfathering your applications under current laws when you agree to support to grandfather all the EB3IC folks who applied in the 2002-2005 timeframe before PERM. Didn't they plan their lives according to the standing rules at that time? Isn't that your argument? How about it, will you support grandfathering them first? Somehow, I highly doubt you will answer this.

I said this yesterday, and I'll say it again. You don't have a contract with USCIS or DOS with a delivery date specified. If your wait time gets increased by a little, I am sure you can roll with it; you can "work and develop your career at that time", as one of your compatriots from ROW puts it.

Change happens, get on with it.

[RR]

"You make it sound like there is no other option to resolve the long EB3 India wait times except to screw ROW. Absurd."

@Limbo,

Please suggest any and all other options that are feasible in the current political and economic climate. When you have said proposal accepted and debated in the congressional circles, come back to us. We'll be happy to support you.

[Limbo]

Amused,

You make it sound like there is no other option to resolve the long EB3 India wait times except to screw ROW. Absurd.

HR3012 will adversely affect ROW immigrants because they have planned their lives according to the current rules which are not being grandfathered.

I know you say that is not your problem... fine. At least you are being honest about your selfish outlook.

[Sa]

"What I said is that EB3 CP will cease to exist, and that is the only option for certain kinds of workers to enter America to work, especially in the health care industry."

If that health care worker is from India then they have to wait longer. Couple more years of wait for a health care worker from ROW will not create any bigger problems for the industry.

[Amused but Saddened]

So that is your only current problem?

The increased waits are OK then and will not harm ROW irreparably? Can we agree on that then?
Remember what applies to ROW applies to Indians/Chinese. It can't be that waits are bad for one but fine for the other. We are all humans with similar needs even if we can't all be Canadians....

[Limbo]

"You have repeatedly made the case that waiting any longer for a GC will cause ROW applicants to suffer and/or leave, along with your cronies."

Nope, never made that argument.

What I said is that EB3 CP will cease to exist, and that is the only option for certain kinds of workers to enter America to work, especially in the health care industry.

[Amused but Saddened]

Very simple.

You have repeatedly made the case that waiting any longer for a GC will cause ROW applicants to suffer and/or leave, along with your cronies. Assuming that is true, the much longer wait for the Indians and Chinese who are providing many more of the required services here are prohibiting their continued retention and employment. Hence, not good for American employers.

What was that? You did not make that case? OK, in that case a slightly longer wait for ROW is not a problem! You can go home and rest.

Just can't have it both ways dude. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I just love how you speak from both sides of your mouth.

IF ROW waits are a problem then the current India China wait is unacceptable.
If the India China waits are OK (as you seem to think) then it is no problem making ROW wait a bit longer.
So which is it?

[Sa]

"It benefits only those stuck in the EB3 India queue at the expense of immigrants from all other countries.
"

It ends the privilge of the ROW which is getting benifitted in a class based system.

[Limbo]

Ultimately, U.S. EB immigration policy is not about "fairness" to the immigrant per se, or what is best for him or her. It is about the maximum benefit to the country as a whole. From the stand point of Americans, HR3012 cannot be justified as benefiting America or Americans in any way. It benefits only those stuck in the EB3 India queue at the expense of immigrants from all other countries.

You can justify it to yourself anyway you like. I was asking you how it is justified from the point of view of benefiting America. So far I have just heard a repetition of the fairness argument and a bunch of personal attacks.

I think I.V. has been very effective at equivocating and making a false link between HR3012 and the perceived shortage of highly skilled workers, and the difficulty faced by American corporations in bringing in highly skilled immigrants.

[Sa]

"Or do you also now believe we are defined by where we are born?"

I am not sure how you got your NIW but getting into a medical school in India is way tougher than what it is here. I am not sure if you went medical doctor or not but if you are a doctor and got NIW , you are not "lucky" you worked harder and intelligent than lot of people.

These people are not worried about NIW doctors waiting decades but worried about mythical undocumented Nobel Prize winners.

[Sa]

"Best thing will be STEM bill for top class universities in USA. If they give GC for STEM for all universities then that will create a lot of Bogus universities and that will be similar to green card for money and millions from India will come for study. So there is no easy solution for this mess. That is reason Grassley is bothered about any bill."

Grassley wants all the immigration to end both legal and illegal. Please dont try to justify Grassley/Durbins actions.

[Amused but Saddened]

Yeah right.
All people that are suffering should be let alone to continue suffering, because they already know and they plan for it. Don't mitigate their circumstances as it may share the wealth...others who do not expect to suffer should be allowed to enjoy all the fruits.

DREAMERs knew. So did every illegal here. Will you oppose DREAM and all legalization programs with the same fervor? Nurses knew it. They know they don't qualify for H1B. they know the caps and the waits. Will you oppose Nurses relief by the same logic?

We all know the 140K cap. Why are you advocating increased numbers? Should have known and should have prepared. Why ask for the law to change?

This stupid logic can be applied to anything.

As for the laughable idea that our country of birth providing required skilled workers to the US in larger numbers is somehow a "burden" we must collectively bear and be punished for.....you really do have a sense of great superiority, wherever you come from. Hopefully you do something worthwhile with your life.

[Amused but Saddened]

"Now, what possible justification is there for addressing your grievance (long waits to get green cards for EB3 India) in isolation? What makes your grievance so incredibly important to the American people that we have to correct it in isolation, retroactive to fiscal year 2011, and in the process create many unintended consequences which will make the current system even more unfair for others?

As we have seen, HR3012 will not allow American tech companies to bring in one single new worker that they couldn't already bring in, so that argument does not apply.

So what would be the justification?"

This is a serious question?

Politics is the art of the possible. yes there are many problems. We are dealing at this moment with the one we can resolve. It is a pressing problem, not to you who benefits from status quo, but to those thrown into purgatory. Sorry, we can't wait till we bring world peace to start solving each issue. I presume this is your approach to the rest of your life too? If you can't get everything you won't take what's possible?

Funny how you phrase the question though. A couple of years more waiting makes it so terrible for you that you rouse yourself to whine and fight. But a 10 year+ wait for an Indian is "not incredibly important and grievous enough" for them to get relief where they can.

"will make the current system even more unfair for others?"

Again, read my lips. It will not. If you applied first, you get your turn first. No one can get ahead of you if they applied after you in your category. But neither can you leapfrog anyone. So it does not create unfairness, it removes it. Except that as the beneficiary, you are blind to that fact. You get the GC before people that applied 5 years before you: FAIR, they get it first when they have waited much longer: UNFAIR. Is this really your stand?

LNLW:
Yes there are many problems in the world. Yes I am luckier than those hungry in Africa. Yes, I could be dead. Yes, other people suffer more. Does that mean I should stop doing anything and sit back and revel in my "luck" and accept that I should be at the back of the line? Your arguments are inexplicable. I know you don't like the bill, but that does not mean you convert everything to abstract philosophy to put it down. So, DREAMERs have it worse. That does not mean we should not bring relief to EB3I. Sorry, as I told limbo, we can't wait for world peace, we need to get done what we can when we can. As for your idea of doing "worthwhile" things, I consider this one so. And many other too, which I will continue to pursue including the rest of EB reform and yes, DREAM. This is hardly the end of the problem.

Also, please note that my "luck" is apparently a great burden on Limbo who did the mighty task of getting a labor and competing, and considers it justification for being ahead in the line and getting his GC first. Why should it be the opposite for me? Why should people with less qualifications than me get their GC before me when I applied first? Do you support this? Or do you also now believe we are defined by where we are born? I see you were happy to let limbo's comments pass.

I already feel like Paul has patronizingly patted me on the ahead and told me that "it is OK, 5 years is fine for you, after all you are from India. The more important EB2 people from ROW on the other hand should not be made to wait even a day longer. For them 1 more year would be so prohibitive, that they would leave. For you, 5 years is just your birthright. Don't be uppity, know your place."

Somehow I am being told that my country "sent" me and "sends" too many people. More ignorance from the self proclaimed expert. I came here on my own, as myself, on the basis of my skills and the needs of an American employer which continue. Why is it my burden how many people from my country pass that bar as individuals? Or do some here yearn for the good old days when the luck of your birth decided your fate?
Sure, ROW did not "send me behind in the line". The law did. And the law is wrong. So we are trying to change it. Not a conspiracy against India..of course not. But still wrong. Intentionally discriminatory? Who knows, given the history of immigration laws. But still, intended or not, discriminatory. And wrong.

[Mike]

RR,

The issue is due to population of country and millions of people in India are interested in coming to USA.Actually if they see just the interest of the people then HR 3012 will not be enough. After a few years EB3 will become 10 years wait again. I doubt they will increase the green cards so much but Corporations are pushing for H1B increase. So this will go on endless as in India always millions are waiting to come to USA. I doubt USA can accomadate all as unemployment is so much. So waiting time will not change much for EB3 unless they add 200K Green card without adding H1b.

Best thing will be STEM bill for top class universities in USA. If they give GC for STEM for all universities then that will create a lot of Bogus universities and that will be similar to green card for money and millions from India will come for study. So there is no easy solution for this mess. That is reason Grassley is bothered about any bill. If really a bill comes which gives preference to bring top class people that will be passed immediately. But everyone wanted almost unlimited green card so that all who can clear LC can get GC without bothering about the employment situation.

Congress bothered mostly about STEM graduates from USA. If EB2 moves faster congress may slowdown the HR3012 as congress does not bothers much about the EB3.

[Sa]

"and many are already in the process of porting and resolving their situations"

ROW people can do the same.

[Sa]

"Yes, HR 3012 would hurt thousands of people, who have no idea that the rules would be changed on them without any notice! In contrast, people in the retrogressed categories have already had a pretty good idea of how their categories are moving, and many are already in the process of porting and resolving their situations..."

Rules get changed all the time in the middle . 245 i was introduced to benefit certain undocumented people and labor certification which used to take months before 245i took almost 5 years. Why cant these elites wait little longer for the sake of the people who are much worse off?

[Sa]

"What you are facing now is a temporary problem which will be resolved in 5 or 6 years"

I have been waiting since 2002 ... This problem is built into the system and the law need to be changed to make the system fair for everyone.